When interfacing with an another audio system, many folks will use a DI box, which are affordable, isolates the two systems and attenuates HP or line down to balanced mic level. Most have a ground lift switch as well, which can also save the day when there are ground-loops.
It's recommended that stationary room mics be recorded on separate tracks for applause and/or ambiance, that the house mics don't normally pick up.

" echoey "

Try "reverberant".

Some people say "rain barrel effect" but I have never tried speaking in a rain barrel, nor even seen one for that matter, unless it is the same thing as a tank.

Yes, get a feed from the board, about -6dB to be safe. Ask for your own sub and set the levels during dress rehearsal. It's a normal request. And as rraud said, a direct box with grouhd lift is a must.

Feed the board to one camera channel (set at line level!), the Rode to the other; the two will be out of sync but you can reduce that in post. And get the H4 on a tripod as close to midroom as possible, even in the mezzanine or box seats because it's configuration works well even if off center. Make sure you've got a new set of lithium AA's in the Zoom.

The H4 fed from the desk is probably your best option, but make sure you get something like a hand-clap (better still an actual clapperboard) so you can sync the audio with the video later.

The H4 has XLR inputs so a pair of XLR-XLR cables, and a pair of TRS (tip-ring-sleeve) 1/4" jack to XLR cables or adapters should cover 95% of cases you might meet -- and obviously, better still, talk to whoever is doing the sound beforehand, if that's an option!

You won't need a DI box with the H4 as it doesn't have a ground connection, even if you're using the wall-wart power supply. I'd recommend a fresh set of AA batteries either way, so avoid introducing any additional mains hum generators!

Set the H4 to 48kHz, and if you're going to DVD, 16-bit. You could use 24-bit, which would be better, but you might have to convert it later -- the advantage of 24-bit would be that you could record with more headroom, i.e. at a lower level (as seen on the display of the H4) and be better able to handle any unexpected peaks without distortion. Pretty much any audio editor software would be able to create a 16-bit file from a 24-bit file. Note however that the H4 will not take an SD card larger than 1GB (and they're getting rare!), so you're also going to get more recording time at 16-bit than you are at 24-bit.

I'd also record every audio option regardless, just in case .... the shotgun pointed at one of the PA speakers might not have as much reverberation as to make it unusable if the H4 failed. If you have an old minidisc (or even cassette!) recorder, I'd bring that as well -- just as a backup!

The board feed needs to be to the camera as the sync reference, not to the H4, which is then freed up to use as a backup source. Been there, done that.

@musicvid, your experience/advice please ... if it's not possible to get a cable feed back to the camera, how do you approach the problem? I recently went from using a H4 to a H1, which can record broadcast wave format, but I can't figure out how to sync to video using just that ... I'm still waiting for the count-in, or for the drummer to hit the snare :-)

Pluraleyes is my BFF . . .

Below is a "smallish" DVD project with 38 mics and multiple subs. With Pluraleyes and a couple of days (instead of weeks as before) the 5.1 master was drop-dead gorgeous. In this case the H4 was in the back row to capture the rear channel ambience and audience reaction / applause.

Actually, here's a rough stereo mixdown of the opener:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/20519276/Forumsurmix-1.mp4

What was the source for the "rear remix?" Did you route some mix of the other channels to this track, or did you create some sort of intermediate WAV file from the various sources in order to provide "ambience" for the rear channel? Also, do you ever use the LFE channel (I see you created the channel but did not add anything to it), or is that only useful for sound effects?

John,
You're asking a "bit" of my sixty-something memory on a project that was complete almost four years ago.
I use many project iterations and often nest a project I am happy with in the the next iteration; this one was no exception.

As nearly as I can tell by going back a few saved projects, is that "Rear Remix" is a version of the rear house recording, compressed and eq'd, and heavily dipped for coughs, random noise, and inappropriate giggles from flaky gf's. In the preceding version it was moved forward from dead rear by 6dB to blend better with the front and to introduce a bit of applause there; our pit, stage, and talent mics are well isolated.

An interesting technique that I discovered quite by accident is to delay the center front channel by a few ms (in this case by 5 ms, see the pink center track?) to add a bit of "depth" to the front channels. IOW, the side stereo is closer to the listener than mid stage (on z-axis); the only impression I can give is that the front audio is three-dimensional, drawing the ears and eyes into the center of the action.

Tell you what -- I'll remux that opener with the master AC3 5.1 and email you a link, so you can hear what I came up with on your own surround setup. It's a winner in my living room . . .

I have never used LFE on my projects.
I was an unfortunate attendee at an early screening of "Earthquake" as a teen in the 1960's. I still have flashbacks whenever I stop at a red light in the barrio.

;?)

I keep one of these in with my equipment just for this type of thing. I grab the mic audio before it ever gets to the mixer. No buzz, no hum, no unpredictable levels. I just used it the other day and it worked great.

Passive DI's come in many flavors, and I own several, from the simple Matchbox to $100+ products.

The Swiss Army Knife for stage and event work is the active Behringer DI 1000 Ultra (9v or Phantom), as it can handle even a 1KW speaker output without smoke.

I know the audiophiles on here will hate me for this but,

I have recorded several church presentations with my Tascam DR07 which only has a stereo mini-plug line in. I hook an RCA to mini cable to the Tape Out on the audio board and make sure the audio guy is sending everything I need to tape out. Not as fancy as DI boxes and ground lifts, but it has worked well for me. The DR07 holds perfect sync with my camera over at least an hour and a half. Most noise I can filter and I use the camera audio for ambience. I sync it visually and audibly (whichever gets me closest)

I mention this in case you don't have access to the devices they are using or don't understand how to use them.

Dave T2

Dave,
If you can do so without any hum or hiss, then you don't need anything else. Less is more. The thing is, you're working in a stable environment, without time constraints before showtime.

For the rest of us, who are there an hour before the house opens, sticking a DI in the signal path first is the best short term life insurance policy one can buy.

Musicvid, good points. My projects I have done for Church are not money/budget critical. But I have had to do some at the last minute. I just wanted to let the OP know that it can work with simpler approach.

I have not done a large concert or the unknown venue. But if I did, I would get more professional gear.

And I do learn a lot from you guys. I make my living editing for a post house, Vegas is my hobby and personal stuff.(and occasional freelance, but as an editor, not a shooter).

Dave T2

Yeah, I've found myself wearing the producer's hat more times than I would like to recall. Really, all I ever wanted to do is direct the orchestra . . .

Thanks for all the replies everyone.

No chance of a DI line splitter now. I've never heard of or seen one of those and we're on in a couple of hours. No dress rehearsal either, and I've never seen the auditorium. Currently trying to remember how this H4's menu system works arrgghhhh.

I belong underwater.

In the past year I've done perhaps a dozen plays at some local churches and auditoria.

I put a Tascam DR-07 on the headphone monitor output of the sound board. This gives me the purest audio of the performers, especially if they are all wirelessly mic'ed. As mentioned above, these recorders are battery-powered so there are no loop issues to worry about and all I need to get terrific audio is a stereo dual-male miniplug cable and a phono adapter. I record at 48K because the end result will be a DVD.

I also have my AT822 stereo mic set up as close to the centerline and as far forward as they'll allow, feeding a second DR-07. Usually they reserve a seat just for the mic stand close to the front and on the aisle. This is the audio I use for room tone and applause, or as a backup if the house PA system should fail. Both these little recorders run for 5+ hours on two regular AA alkalines, so I check levels before the performance, then turn them on 15 minutes prior and forget them. They're quiet, so I give myself lots of headroom for the unexpected.

I shoot with two camcorders with the better one (and the one I control) on the centerline towards the rear. The audio from these is garbage, though I have used the audio from the rear camera for the rear two audio channels if I am doing 4-channel surround sound.

Getting back to your particular situation, I suspect if you have a choice between a mono shotgun and the AT825, I'd be inclined to try pointing the shotgun at the closest loudspeaker and listening to the results. This might work surprisingly well, though the output is going to be mono. It would be very useful to be able to record stereo room tone also.

I wouldn't worry too much about sync, since you can sync manually with some practice or via software (but keep in mind that the audio from the back of the hall will be one frame delayed).

Nick,
It's moments in life like this that will drive you to greatness (or another gig). Cherish them.
Also buy the sound guy a Scotch. He's probably got a spare DI in a drawer somewhere and will hook it up for you.
Best.

I was an unfortunate attendee at an early screening of "Earthquake" as a teen in the 1960's. I still have flashbacks whenever I stop at a red light in the barrio.Ah, the original "subwoofer" movie, except they called it "Sensurround" back then. Another great movie gimmick like 3D (oops, that will quickly take the thread off-topic).

I remember "smellavision" as well. I think of it every time I smell shoe polish (a scene in the street with the obligatory shoe-shine guy).

Back to the topic ...

For ground lifting, I use unbalanced to Cat5 converters. These kill two birds with one stone: they let me make a long run from the sound board to my camera position without introducing any unpleasantness, and they also break any ground loops because they use passive baluns. I use them in my home to route the home theater sound and (analog) video from room to room.

One problem I've had is that many of the sound boards at amateur productions (schools, local theaters) are run by people with only minimal knowledge of their equipment. I got shut out this year from connecting to the sound board for my 33rd annual videotaping of The Nutcracker because the people didn't know how to patch the house audio to any of the available outputs.

Finally, one thing you always need to do: bring every adapter and cable combination you can think of because the sound board person may only be able to give you RCA or phone jack or XLR ... you've got to be able to deal with all sorts of surprises. I think my record is four adapters in a chain to get where I wanted to go.

Oh, one last thing. If they are using pre-recorded music, try to buy a copy. When I couldn't connect this past December, I remembered that it was me who produced the mix they were using (I did this over ten years ago) and I still had the mix on a backup. I used that instead of the sound board audio (although it didn't help me for the narrator), although it was a pain to re-time it (it had been modified over the years) and correct the pitch.

Oh yes . . . . . jm " . . . . . the people didn't know how to patch the house audio to any of the available outputs.

I'll add: Meet up with the "tech" prior to the event; walk the plot and IF they are having one, attend a rehearsal. The success of this last one is predicated on the proviso/s that:-

A] The same personnel will be in attendance

B] They have a keen understanding what is LEFT and RIGHT

C] The person who said they have authority in fact DOES!

D] Get ALL mobile phone numbers and then CALL them to test!

In 2011>2012 I did something like 35 on-site, audio-rich projects. I learnt stacks..... However, if there is ONE over-riding philosophy it's:

Do NOT take anything for granted!

Grazie

Nick

Get yourself a small torch /flashlight when it goes bad, bad in the dark is called horror. And always new batteries as suggested

I found the zoom menu system a total disaster, trying to work two fronts audio and visual, both which need special attention, the zoom menu added unnecessary stress.
If there is no linefeed and I am on my own I use a Tascam DR-07 with a AT897.

I used an extra zoom when recording some stuff for an EPK for Riverdance and if ever I make a war movie one day then those files could maybe come in handy. You have to playback and check, check, and check again so as musicvid said get there early. Always.


I only use the zoom for backup ambient or zoom with a AT897 backup.

Nick,

I shoot a lot in school auditoriums.

If you haven't made a decision yet I would use the recorder on the soundboard and either use the onboard mic on the camera or the AT825.

I looked up http://www.sharkguardian.org/Shark Guardian[/link] and it looks like they set up a screen behind them for a projector and talk into microphones. There are no singers or orchestras to worry about so I would go the simple route. The sound board will probably have kids on it who may or may not be very helpful or know very much, and the output from the sound board may very well sound worse than the room audio so attach it to the recorder. Set it. And forget it.

John