Which ready-made PC for video and audio

JohnnyRoy wrote on 10/26/2005, 6:06 PM

I can’t speak for HP or Sony because I’ve never owned one of their PC’s but I can speak for my experience with Dell. If you are planning to add your own SCSI card or sound card forget about Dell because they will forget about you. As soon as you place something in that PC that you didn’t buy from them, they will stop giving you technical support. I can’t say I blame them because you can’t expect them to support parts they haven’t tested with, but the point is, if you are going to modify the PC from the start, then you loose the attraction of a Dell because your customer support is gone. So why even bother with them.

I believe your best bet is to go with a custom builder. You can get a Dual Opteron, 1GB ram system like the BOXX 7300 Series (around $2350) or 5100 Series (around $1850) which are specifically made for video editing. That’s about what you would pay for a high end Dell XPS only the Dell is not tuned for video editing, will have lots of junk programs on it that will get in the way of your video editing, and will have Dell proprietary, sub-spec parts. BOXX builds their PC’s from high-quality industry standard parts. If the Performance or Mainstream line is too expensive, they also have a Value line. So check out BOXX.

ABS Computer is another great builder who uses industry standard parts at very reasonable prices. In fact, you get to pick motherboard, case, audio, video, and lots more options that the big PC makers. This gives you lots more control over what you get AND you are getting an industry standard motherboard that you can replace NOT a Dell proprietary motherboard that only works with their power supplies, etc.

Check out the customer builders and stay away from Dell. I know there are others in this community that have no problems with Dell but that has NOT been my experience. I would never buy a Dell again, not when customer builders like BOXX and ABS give you so much more for your money.

~jr

GlennChan wrote on 10/26/2005, 6:33 PM

If you can build your own computer, your best bet may be to find a hot deal on a Dell Inspiron 9100 and throw in your own upgrades. The way Dell works is that they advertise the base system low so they can suck people in and hit them up with overpriced upgrades. But you can just buy the same system, it's cheaper than the parts for a custom-built computer.

On the high end, Dell is overpriced until you find coupons on them, or phone up their sales reps and find an aggressive one who will give you a deal. I believe it would come out to around the same price as a custom-PC vendor (i.e. Monarchcomputer.com).

Specialized custom-PC vendors like Boxx are more expensive (and not necessarily better, unless they are providing specialized support).

2- Like JohnnyRoy mentioned, Dell has some shoddy things about it. proprietary parts (I believe the power supplies are standard ATX now; the case may be proprietary), limited expansion, possibly shoddy support (see resellerratings.com) unless you have a big contract with them, no Windows CD, and junk programs installed (may not be a big deal).

I don't think their parts are sub-spec- they seem to be very reasonable quality.

3- Vegas runs on practically anything, so specialized support may not really be all that useful.

fldave wrote on 10/26/2005, 6:47 PM

I read recently (PC Magazine, I believe) an annual support/quality user survey. Dell usually comes in high, but the surprise this year was: Sony. Very good quality, very good support. I would expect it to work well with Vegas.

I build all of my own after lots of research and trying to keep current with the tech. My wife's HP is so loaded with crap out of the box. I don't like to spend a ton of money on things bleeding edge.

Of course, after I built my Intel HT, the dual AMDs came around and are blowing Intel out of the competition. For video, I would look for an upgradeable dual AMD for a reasonable cost.

RalphM wrote on 10/26/2005, 6:50 PM

I have three Dells running Vegas 5/6. They have been reliable and trouble free for the most part.

My only real complaint is Dell's scripted offshore "help" desk. I can usually solve the problem on my own, but my daughter is away at college with a 4th Dell, and the "support" I paid extra for is a joke. Big mistake - I may have been better off buying an overpriced computer through the Campus bookstore.

jrazz wrote on 10/26/2005, 8:14 PM

You already have a computer with good parts already in it I assume. You can reuse your dvd burner, your hard drives, your ram possibly, your operating system, your power supply, etc. All you would need to buy is the processor(s), video card for what you want, and the motherboard if all the other things are still good. If you have an ATX case, you can reuse that too. You can save a lot of money that way. I would seriously look at building your own system. That is what I do and have done in the past.
j razz

DrLumen wrote on 10/26/2005, 9:01 PM

Like jr was saying, if you are going to mod any mainstream system, you will not be able to get support for it; some manufacturers will but you have to put it back the way you bought it - which could be a major hassle. Also, they will likely want you to run the recovery disk first thing so that is another hassle...

Like was said, you can get a custom built or upgrade yours. I prefer upgrading myself if I'm going to reuse a lot of the same parts. Another option is to buy a barebones system from someplace like tiger direct and then add your sound, video and scsi drives yourself. If I have to (almost) start over, to something like Serial ATA or PCI express, I will get a good barebones system and add from there.

You still won't get any typical tech support but the individual components will have some warranty. Plus upgrades or barebones upgrades are usually cheaper or you end up with a better/faster system for the same money.

GlennChan wrote on 10/26/2005, 9:13 PM

If you want to upgrade a Dell, you need to pay attention. The power supply may look like ATX but isn't. The case may not have standard standoffs for ATX.

If you are upgrading another kind of computer (i.e. custom-built), you still have to check that the parts are compatible.
Is the power supply powerful enough?
Does it have the right connectors? (serial ATA power, 24pin power if your motherboard needs that; the extra 4 pin power connector for Intel CPUs).

Will the new motherboard fit in the case (i.e. are the optical bays blocking stuff; some cheap small cases do this; check that the case isn't mATX when the motherboard is ATX).

Sometimes when you upgrade the old stuff is obsolete and won't work with new technology. So you basically need to upgrade everything except for the case (and maybe power supply) and the hard drives and the optical drives (which are obsolete).

2- Some of the barebones kits will give you shoddy components. In particular the case may have sharp edges (to cut yourself on) and take a little longer to assemble everything.
The power supply may have its specs fudged and may be underpowered.
The motherboard may be an off-brand with mediocre quality control. Motherboard problems are really bad because they are hard to diagnose.
Quality-wise, I would consider an OEM computer to be better quality by a bit (compared to barebones/generic stuff).

Anyways, going with an OEM computer does have its tradeoffs which have all been mentioned I believe. I believe it's cheaper than barebones, but I haven't checked prices much.

DrLumen wrote on 10/26/2005, 10:15 PM

As far as homebuilt to OEM prices go, you can do a homebuilt (complete system not barebones) for the same price but you will be getting slightly substandard parts. (Note I'm referring to the comparisons of the lowest priced OEM systems to a comparable homebuilt) A good homebuilt will be a little more. One selling point for an OEM system is that it has the software packages, the OS, and support if you need it (this would be a good system for your typical AOL user). However, a good complete homebuilt will have better grade parts and more upgrade flexibility.

Also with a homebuilt system, a decent tech will actually know the grade of the parts they are buying. Whereas an OEM system board will be a proprietary part that will only work with the oem case/power supply (like was mentioned), was made by the lowest bidder the OEM could find and has very little, if not zero, upgradeability. Case in point, some OEMs only know what parts are in a system by the week it was manufactured and then tracking back to the lowest bidder for the parts that week. I don't believe that is better or more reliable than a name brand systemboard from a manufacturer like intel, Abit or supermicro.

There are pros and cons to every situation. It really depends on the experience of the person building the system and if they want Bangalore tech support and the M$ Works package... Personally, I don't want the tech support, the plethora of crappy software/demos or the proprietary system board, BIOS and case.

dpvollmer wrote on 10/27/2005, 6:34 AM

Thank you everyone. Your suggestions are really helpful.

I don't know if any of you remember the Heathkits but does anyone know of a reputable supplier of PC parts that actually sell a custom parts "kit" that contains all of the wanted components, i.e., case, power supply, motherboard, cables, drives, operating system, etc?

I know I can go to Newegg or other places and purchase the parts to build a PC I just don't know which parts to purchase that will fit and work well together. I was an ET (electronic technician) in the Navy and don't think I would have a problem building the computer - just determining what mix of components to purchase.

I would probably keep the CD/DVD, and main hard drive in my existing PC and reformat and install XP, expecially since my wife's PC is trying to die. I would, however, want the SCSI card and maybe the PCI sound card (Echo) to be installed in the new PC.

Again, your help is most appreciated.

David

jetdv wrote on 10/27/2005, 6:43 AM

David, you might want to take a look here for some DIY computer information.

dpvollmer wrote on 10/27/2005, 6:46 AM

Thank you, JohnnyRoy, for you most helpful response. You have pretty much convinced me to not consider Dell.

You mentioned a Dual Opteron processor; how does that compare to the new Intel Pentium D processors?

Between Boxx and ABS, which would you choose to do business with - prices being comparable?

Would 2GB of RAM be worth the extra cost?

Would either Boxx or ABS still support me if I installed my own SCSI card or should I let them install their own card?

Thank you again,
David

dpvollmer wrote on 10/27/2005, 6:52 AM

jetdv, thank you for the suggestion. I have found that much of what the VideoGuys have on their site is a bit dated. Not that I need or can afford the cutting edge components but I would like one of their systems to include the Pentium D processor.

David

Former user wrote on 10/27/2005, 8:42 AM

I've had very good luck with mWave.com.

They offer components as well as complete systems. They will even assembly and test whatever components you spec. The following is a list of components that closely match a particular Boxx 7300 system (the case I spec'd is a very nice $175 Antec server case with 10 drive bays)...

PNY Quadro FX 540 128MB DDR PCI Express DVI-SL VGA HDTV
WD 250GB 2500JS 8MB 7200RPM
LITE ON 16X SOHW-1693S DVD Rewriteable drive
Microsoft Windows XP Professional w/sp2
Antec Titan 550 File Server Tower W/TPII550EPS12V 550W
Sony 1.44 Floppy drive
MS Wireless optical desktop keyboard & mouse
ASUS K8N-DL nVIDIA nFORCE4 Professional Chipset
AMD Opteron 246 x 2
2GB ECC Reg DDR400 (1GB X 2)

Components from Mwave - $1675 (plus $80 if you want them to assemble it.)

The equivalent BOXX 7300 system is $2770

So you can save a fair amount if you want to shop around a little...

Jim

riredale wrote on 10/27/2005, 9:12 AM

I've built my own system based on an AMD processor, but it's getting a bit long in the tooth, and I'll probably be upgrading it in the next years. But it's utterly reliable, so, hey, why rush to change what works well?

From what I've seen on this board and elsewhere, the new King of the Video Processing Hill is the new AMD dual-processor chip having the designation "X2." There are several different speeds available, and you'll pay a lot more for the very fastest. But again, these X2 chips just blow the doors off anything else.

So it seems to me that you can make a very powerful system based on an X2 chip and compatible motherboard, and then you can reuse many of your current components or buy those new also. My own experience is that everything is pretty much compatible with everything else, but I would recommend buying parts from a local warehouse store (here on the West Coast we hve Fry's, a wonderful place) so you can (a) ask questions in person, and (b) return stuff that you decide is not what you want.

Good luck.

JohnnyRoy wrote on 10/27/2005, 9:19 PM

> I don't think their parts are sub-spec- they seem to be very reasonable quality.

I was referring to the Dell practice of having Creative make a SoundBlaster Audigy card with no digital i/o or MIDI ports just for Dell and then they sell it to you and you think you’re getting a stock Audigy card until you try to go and plug your MIDI keyboard in. They also have nVidia built them graphics cards with slower memory cores and pass them of as retail models. Very, very shady practices and I’m talking from experience not hearsay. I still have these mutant cards to prove it! You never know what you will get when you buy Dell.

~jr

JohnnyRoy wrote on 10/27/2005, 9:28 PM

> I don't know if any of you remember the Heathkits

Oh yea those were the days. You could build you own TV. As jimwoodruff recommended, mWave.com will pre-build a system for you for a nominal fee. I have never tried them but it looks like a great deal. They help you pick parts and they assemble and test. I don’t think you get any support with that but it’s the cheapest way to go other than building you own.

> You mentioned a Dual Opteron processor; how does that compare to the new Intel Pentium D processors?

The Pentium D’s are dual core. I would go with the AMD X2’s instead. They are faster that the Pentium D. I’m picking parts for a new system I’m building around the AMD X2 4600+. I just gave the dual Opterons as an example but Dual Core is all the rage now (Pentium D or AMD X2) and I’m sure BOXX will start building with these soon.

> Between Boxx and ABS, which would you choose to do business with - prices being comparable?

Price being comparable I would go with BOXX because they build Turnkey Video PC’s so they understand what is needed for video editing. I build my own but BOXX builds quality PC's.

> Would 2GB of RAM be worth the extra cost?

I’m going with 2GB this time but I’ve been using 1GB with no problems. I just bought an HD camera so I figure 2GB is better for me because the project dimensions are 4.5x that of DV.

> Would either Boxx or ABS still support me if I installed my own SCSI card or should I let them install their own card?

Not sure you would have to ask them. The good news is all the parts that they use are off-the-shelf so upgrades/replacements are easy.

~jr

dhill wrote on 10/27/2005, 10:35 PM

Yeah, I'd stay away from Dell too. Take a trip over to resellerratings.com and read for a while.

Hey JohnnyRoy, oh fellow tickler of the ivories, I'm having a new box built and chose the X2 4400 since the cache on the 4400 and the 4800 is twice as big as the 4600. Do you think that will make a difference with Vegas/rendering?

Any way, only 2 more weeks on my P3 1gig ancient desktop. Then I can be like JHendrix and post all of the new issues I'm having trying to make it all work. haha Hopefully not. DH

dpvollmer wrote on 10/28/2005, 8:58 AM

Wow, that's quite a difference in price, jimwoodruff! I will check this out for sure. Thanks.

JohnnyRoy wrote on 10/28/2005, 10:08 AM

> Hey JohnnyRoy, oh fellow tickler of the ivories, I'm having a new box built and chose the X2 4400 since the cache on the 4400 and the 4800 is twice as big as the 4600. Do you think that will make a difference with Vegas/rendering?

That is the agonizing question isn’t it. I did a lot of reading on this and while a larger cache will "sometimes" help, faster core speed with ALWAYS help when rendering. So I went with the faster 2.4GHz of the 4600+ over the slower 2.2GHz with a larger cache. One might offset the other, you'd have to test with identical system to really be sure.

Here is the system I’m currently building with parts from newegg.com:

Case:    Antec LifeStyle SONATA II Piano Black       $99.99 

Mobo:    ASUS A8N-SLI Premium                       $169.00

Proc:    AMD Athlon 64 X2 4600+ Socket 939          $637.00 

Mem:     CORSAIR XMS 2GB Twinx2048-3200c2pt         $276.00 

HD 1:    WD Raptor WD740GD 10,000 RPM SATA150       $165.99 

HD 2&3:  2 x WD 250GB WD2500JS SATA II (Raid 0)     $201.98 

DVDRW:   Pioneer DVD Burner DVR-110DBK               $42.99 

Video:   MSI Geforce 6800GT 256MB GDDR3             $298.00 

Floppy:  SAMSUNG Black 1.44MB 3.5" Floppy             $7.99 

KBD:     Logitech Internet Pro Standard Keyboard      $9.98 

Mouse:   Logitech MX510 Optical Mouse                $38.00 

Cooling: ZALMAN CNPS9500 LED 92mm Heatsink           $67.99 

OS:      Microsoft Windows XP Professional w/SP2    $134.95

-----------------------------------------------------------

Total                                              $2059.89

You don’t need the GeForce 6800GT card but I do FPS gaming so I want something that is at least as good as my Radeon 9800 Pro that I have now. It also helps with Cinema 4D and other 3D applications that I occasionally use. That’s also why I went with the more expensive memory. (Man does not live by video editing alone) You can easily shave $250 more off the price by using a cheaper graphics card and less expensive ram.

The 10K hard drive should make Windows and applications load much faster. I’m also using SATA II drives (3GB/s) in a Raid 0 to give me a 500GB (that’s ½ a Terabyte!) for HD capture.

I’m hoping it’s quieter than the tower I have now. We’ll see. I’m sure with the AMD X2 4600+ it will scream! I can’t wait!!!

[edit: Just realized 10K drive is SATA not IDE so it will work at full bandwidth]

~jr

B.Verlik wrote on 10/28/2005, 11:40 AM

There's a lot of talk here about Dell and Custom PCs. Where's the people that have HPs and Sony's? I need to hear feedback from you too. How does HP stack up to Dell? Do they use "Custom-made" video and Sound cards that are similar, yet different to the original too? I'm sure the only problem with Sony, is it's much more expensive.
I was looking into an HP 3Ghz (I have to cut corners somehow), because I was afraid of the problems I've heard with Dell and trying to swap out certain things. But with nobody commenting here, I've become afraid of that too.

fldave wrote on 10/28/2005, 12:50 PM

See my post above, 3rd reply to the first message. My wife's pc is really a Compaq, not HP, and it is loaded to the gills with background software that drags performance down.

Also, and most importantly, the power supply went out. It was proprietary, so I needed compaq model. They would send me one for $180 (outrageous), or we could send the PC to them and get it fixed for free (warranty). With overnight delivery, it took them over 4 weeks to replace it and send it back. Never again.

HP and Compaq are the same company now, so support is very important.

mm2k wrote on 10/28/2005, 1:58 PM

go-l.com Super computers and costly!!!

Coursedesign wrote on 10/28/2005, 2:35 PM

The 6800GT card is pretty noisy (and hot). For anybody who can live with about 1/3 less gaming performance, the eVGA GeForce 6600GT is quieter and cooler for less than half the price. It also has dual DVI and even HDTV out. This is a great, stable card with OpenGL 2.0 and DirectX 9 drivers that support the latest goodies in texture shading, I was stunned when even Newtek recommended it for the new LightWave 8.5 release.

Both of the above cards can be made much more quiet with replacement VGA coolers such as the Zalman VF700-AlCu ($26.99 at Newegg).

The WD 10K Raptors sell for $129.99AR at Fry's this weekend.

I am a huge fan of the Logitech MX700 wireless keyboard and mouse. Best I have used in many many years, I have seen this combo for $50 recently.

(Fry's also has Seagate 300GB 8MB Ultra ATA retail drives for $79.99AR, I got a few of these, they're good ATA drives).

olsonm wrote on 10/28/2005, 3:35 PM

Sony Vaio and love it! P4-1.7 at Costco a number of years ago and it still rocks! Been looking at the new Media Center Vaio's and am really tempted.

I also use Dell at work for video production (school classroom) and they do quite well for a weekly tv production that I have my class working on.