White Flag! 1080i > PAL DVDA . . . . "Field Rips&amp

Grazie wrote on 11/6/2014, 12:16 PM

OK . . .

I've started with Canon MXF 1920x1080i. 50i UFF

Project matches Media for Editing.

When I render for DVDA PAL I get field nonsense - I showed Bob this morning - and have spent ALL of today flying this through Lagarith to get rid of any field anomalies.

As a last resort I have used one of my templates for Progressive and it appears to work.

Is there any darn way I can retain fields going into DVDA? Is there?

I'm really tired . . . .

G

Comments

FilmingPhotoGuy wrote on 11/6/2014, 1:13 PM

Define 'field nonsense'

The past week I've had similar 'nonsense' going to DVD PAL from 1920x1080i

Captured Canon 1920x1080i. Project settings >PAL DV Widescreen.
Used Particle Illusion for intro used Lagarith to output 1280x720p. On the timeline media is mixed. Intro = 15 sec Lagarith 1280x720p clip, then 1920x1080i footage.

After rendering I noticed a glitch every 45 seconds or so. First I thought the camera was faulty as it occurred in over 50 renders before I stopped. Then I thought it was the refrigerators thermostat kicking in and out, then the geyser. After switching everything off it still persisted.

In the end I rendered out to 1280x720p and all the glitches vanished.

farss wrote on 11/6/2014, 1:40 PM

Did you try driving a stake through the heart of all things GPU acceleration?

Bob.

Grazie wrote on 11/6/2014, 2:02 PM

Yes Bob. I did an imperical, progressive sets of render batches via Lagarith, RAM at various values, GPU on/off. It was ALL shite.

As per our chum here, zapped it with a PROGRESSIVE hammer and now I can show my client's Conference facility. I hate hate hate all this gonads.....

Rant/off

Grazie

farss wrote on 11/6/2014, 2:24 PM

OK, it'll be 12 hours before I'm back but I'll recheck my first and last V13 project which was all 1920x1080 50i straight to DVDA wide SD for any glitches although I'm pretty confident already that it was pristine.

The only other thing I can think of is I only used native Sony plugs i.e. colour curves and colour correction. If you're using any 3rd party plugs they could be the cause of the problem.

Bob.

PeterDuke wrote on 11/6/2014, 6:08 PM

Do you have Deinterlace Method set to either interpolate or blend in the project properties?

Since you are starting with UFF are you rendering to UFF? (Not very important when you are resizing anyway).

It may help to better describe "field nonsense".

PeterDuke wrote on 11/6/2014, 6:17 PM

If you want to be able to see the individual fields in Vegas, set the project properties to 50 fps progressive and best /full display in the monitor. Then when you step along one frame at a time you see one field at a time. If the fields have been reversed, you will see a two steps forward, one step back pattern. The deinterlace method may have to be set to none for this, I forget.

EDIT

The deinterlace method set in properties is irrelevant for this test.

2nd Edit

Set the deinterlace method to interpolate, and it will work for versions 9 to 13.

johnmeyer wrote on 11/6/2014, 6:19 PM

The deinterlace method may have to be set to none for this, I forget.Yes, it does.

I still don't know what the original problems was all about, given that no video was ever posted.

PeterDuke wrote on 11/6/2014, 11:38 PM

"The deinterlace method may have to be set to none for this, I forget."

No! It doesn't! (Not just now when I tried it, anyway).

Aaaaaggghhhh!!

Version 13 behaves differently to 9. With 13 you must set the deinterlace method to interpolate. With none or blend, it seems to show the two fields in alternate frames. I will see what the intervening versions of Vegas do.

Versions 9 and 10, the deinterlace method is irrelevant
Versions 11, 12 and 13, the deinterlace method should be set to interpolate. (This behaviour makes no sense to me!)

johnmeyer wrote on 11/7/2014, 12:00 AM

Version 13 behaves differently to 9. With 13 you must set the deinterlace method to interpolate. With none or blend, it seems to show the two fields in alternate frames. I will see what the intervening versions of Vegas do.Well, that is pretty darned interesting. I did in fact test this before I posted, but I did it in Vegas 10, because I was booted on my XP drive. Many people have posted this "trick" many times over the years, and setting deinterlace to "none" has always been part of the recipe, and having forgotten to do this many times, I am quite certain it is needed.

If V13 no longer requires this setting, it perhaps indicates something -- perhaps major -- has been changed in what the deinterlace settings do. I don't have the time, energy, or inclination to investigate further.

farss wrote on 11/7/2014, 12:10 AM

Gentlemen,
Grazie showed me the problem, it is intermittent so forget about field order problems, which de-interlace method is set in the project etc., etc..
In one instance one field was upside down, the other right way up.

My gut feeling is it either has something to do with GPU acceleration and/or a plugin that uses GPU acceleration.

Bob.

PeterDuke wrote on 11/7/2014, 12:35 AM

Now that the original problem is finished, I presume that we are free to hijack its thread!

"If V13 no longer requires this setting,"

Actually, V13, along with V11 and V12 do require a setting (interpolate), whereas V9 and V10 don't require any setting. That's from my tests, anyway. I hope it is not installation dependent!

Grazie wrote on 11/7/2014, 12:41 AM

Peter, I've been reading and re-reading all the input. HiJack . . . ?

Bob, tested with GPU ON/OFF, made no difference. And at the point where there IS the issue, there aren't any plugins.

John, this is very intermittent and ONLY observable on the MPEG creation viewed BACK in the Project. If I set Preview to BEST then it's good. If I set it to PREVIEW Half, then I can see the areas of issue that I can SEE in the finished DVD.

Grazie

PeterDuke wrote on 11/7/2014, 2:29 AM

Well maybe the original problem has not been solved, so we should not introduce "side issues" if not "hijacks", but I will interpret Grazie's last post as licence to continue with one more post on my side issue, because it well may close there. If there is further interest, we should then start another thread.

I noted johnmeyer's comment "If V13 no longer requires this setting, it perhaps indicates something -- perhaps major -- has been changed in what the deinterlace settings do." and I wondered whether the old rule of setting the deinterlace method to blend or interpolate still applied when changing the resolution of interlaced video.

Well, I am happy to say that the rule does still apply, but the consequence of setting deinterlace method to none has changed slightly.

Here are some frames from a double frame rate progressive project (i.e. the fields of a down-sampled AVCHD to SD video) that is of a rotating sheet of white paper with a thinish black line on the diameter. You will note the line opens into a wedge at each end due to motion blur and the line is slightly curved due to rolling shutter, I presume.

Vegas V9, deinterlace method none

Vegas V9, deinterlace method interpolate

Vegas V13, deinterlace method none

Vegas V13, deinterlace method interpolate

You will see that with deinterlace method = none, the output field is made up of two original fields (and repeated in the second output field. Trust me!), but the blending appears different between versions of Vegas. Since this setting is unlikely to be of any use, we should just shrug our shoulders and carry on as before.

With both V9 and V13, there was no obvious difference between interpolate method = blend and interpolate method = interpolate. (Trust me again!) I did a file compare using FC /B once, and blend and interpolate gave identical results.

EDIT

OK, what have I done wrong? Why don't my images in dropbox show?

I have a square open bracket then "img=" then the URL and a closing bracket. Show images is set in my forum profile.

here are the URLs anyway:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/k35unwourgqaabt/V9%20none.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/a6foptf7a8t8roe/V9%20interp.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6ixojwba7zw5idh/V13%20none.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/oyqzmxhpqx5u1bf/V13%20interp.jpg?dl=0

Kimberly wrote on 11/7/2014, 9:03 AM

@PeterDuke:

When you copy and paste a public link from DropBox, I've found you must remove the "s" from the "https" part of the link. Kinda silly because if it's a public link then DropBox should know not to add the "s" but it doesn't seem to know this.

Regards,

Kimberly

PeterDuke wrote on 11/7/2014, 4:28 PM

Thanks Kimberly, but after editing my post, the images still do not show, nor any text of any kind, which surprises me.

I copied one link directly into Google Chrome, and deleted the "s". Chrome obligingly opened my image with the s put back in again in the URL.

OldSmoke wrote on 11/7/2014, 5:26 PM

Message Deleted.

Grazie wrote on 11/11/2014, 11:02 PM

Here is the issue, or rather the results of what is happening - within ONE frame of interlace video. The '50s "Wallpaper-Look" is purely me retaining the individual's anonymity within the JPEG, this is not on the VP Timeline. Kinda sweeter than the usual PIXELATION stuff?:

GOOD FRAME:

....and now, the very next frame, with BOTH fields (?), with one inverted, AND within the SAME frame!

VERY BAD FRAME:

UPDATE:

MC MPEG, imho, is creating the issue.

LAGARITH does not create the issue. Perfect frame continuity. It is from this LAGARITH that I then create my MC MPEG for DVD preparation, which is perfect.

a) GPU on/off makes no difference to BAD Frames.

b) No Plugins present at frame mangle.

c) RAM set at 200mb.

Grazie