Thanks Buster.

I agree.

Bit

"Who has switched from Tape and onto HDD, flash or DVD to make use of these modern HDV cameras?"

I've been using P2 almost exclusively for over two years now.


"How have you accepted the transition encoding with the different media with Vegas?"

It's driving me to drink, how much I miss the tedious hours of capturing. :)

That said, using P2/DVCPRO, Vegas is workable, but limiting. There's Raylight, and it's improving all the time, but it still has a ways to go to match the integration offered by most other NLEs at this point. (FCP is still at the bottom of the pack.)


"Have you noticed loss of Picture quality?"

No. Tapeless is the exact same data, or better data (better codecs, etc.), that you'd have with tape, only without the need for capture and avoiding the dangers inherent to tape/capturing. Tapeless has none of the drawbacks of tape, and tape's only real advantage -- instant archiving -- is increasingly a very moot point.

"Have you changed from HDV to AVHCD also? If so, happy?"

Was never much interested in HDV, and I don't think I'll have much reason for using AVCHD, either.

That's something I've never been able to figure out. You're shooting digital, right? All you have to be concerned about is the physical integrity of the tape and its ability to record bits. In the analog domain, higher grades of tape, with better frequency response and dynamic range makes sense; but in the digital domain? Please... Is the $10 Sony premium miniDV going to provide a better AVI than the $2 standard cassette? I don't think sooooo.....

Well, you're right in that as long as you have all the 1s and 0s, you've got the full quality of your video, and in that sense, it doesn't matter what it's recorded on.

But cheaper tape can give you problems which might prevent you from getting all the 1s and 0s -- as in, producing dropouts,

Cheaper tape is more prone to stretching, flaking, weather conditions, etc..

What is the best mini camcorder for consumer/prosumer level with highest bitrate?

Bit

I remember an instance several years ago where I was getting a repeatable dropped pixel in something and rendering it to various compression formats would make the blotch larger or smaller, uncompressed leaving it as a single pixel dot. (This was an electronic issue with a firewire device, if I remember correctly). The upshot of it is that high compression can make bad things a little bigger and more visible.

I'm not really partisan about this. There are obviously times when a nonlinear recorder has huge advantages over tape, and there are times when tape is still the best choice for digital recording. I just asked how much was shot on these Galapagos trips and it turned out to be 60 hours (120 tapes). They have LOTS of time to ingest this later on, but if they had been on a deadline then dumping to a hard disc as they worked might have been more worth it, assuming they had room on the mule for the extra electronics.

So, given a price point that you want to be at for a camera, given a specific workflow that you expect (How and when to ingest, archive, or hand off raw footage), given the edit system you want to work with (not all systems handle all types of codecs), you choose a camera. And all this gets back down to Bo'B's real question, which is what's going to be best for him at a price point below the EX?

Rob Mack

Thansk Mack

I agree with Buster about HDV. Probably the more editable choice and there is now at least one HDV camera that can use solid state memory instead of tape.

Rob Mack

Prices from BH Photo Video

Sony HDR-HC9 HDV Camcorder $1,000
Canon VIXIA HV20 HDV Camcorder $800

Bit,

I think your decision is amongst these two for prosumer HDV tape-based cameras. Take a while and read all the info on the web on these.

What is the best mini camcorder for consumer/prosumer level with highest bitrate?Good grief, how many times do you have to ask the same question? What's more, it's been answered a dozen different times by many people. Buy the damn camera, and start shooting!!

Please... Is the $10 Sony premium miniDV going to provide a better AVI than the $2 standard cassette? I don't think sooooo..... It's all about dropouts, not about increased picture quality. With DV, a dropout causes problems on one frame; with HDV, a dropout will cause almost half a second of video to be completely lost. Thus, the damage is HUGE by comparison to DV. If you don't mind having the chance that the video of the bride saying "I do" may be lost to a 0.5 second blank spot (which is what will happen, and I have seen it happen), then use the cheaper tapes.

One thing for sure, once it happens to YOU, you will get religion -- I guarantee it.

Good grief, how many times do you have to ask the same question?

Why all the anger, John? ;)

David, I use , on average, anywhere from 10 to 20 cassettes per week. Been doing this for years. I've yet to encounter any problems with tape stretching, flaking, or anything causing dropouts. True, it may be due to my environmentally friendly shooting conditions [an auditorium that's climate controlled for humans to survive in] and my restricted use of the tapes [write once, play once for capture, put away]. $10 a tape would make this prohibitively expensive. At $2, tape becomes a commodity, and as long as it does it's job, I'm perfectly happy.

Why all the anger, John? ;)

Touché !

Boy, some of you must not take basic care of your transports (or are trying a bit hard to justify one's latest purchase?)...cause I've only seen tape issues on a rare occasion. Even then it was a quick dropout at best. Of course, using a single tape over and over past it's suggested use isn't what anybody would consider wise.

But some of these replies are reminiscent of the hopeful, nerdy BS in "having to move to BlueRay to thoroughly enjoy/see a film".
Do you really think flashmem is ironclad?...if so I've got several dead units you can buy.

Anyone care to reiterate the price of the 32gb flash? What will it be in '09? Is 32gb even close to enough anyway without driving you bonkers worrying about space with any more serious projects?

I think the answer is still staring the consumer/prosumer right in the face - go price any tape (even the high quality). Then add up flash mem cost vs. their limited length (and then factor in how you're handling/carrying the extra flashmem - another worry when you're out
on a fun trip/whatever. They aren't infalliable, not at all).

Most signs point to tape still being the smartest choice. Yes you have to take the time dumping it over, but come on...is this really that difficult or strenuous? Do you REALLY need to get that same Disneyworld or magic Mountain crap into your editor a bit faster than tape?...at the expense of limited mem space?
* not that those places aren't fun/valid...just comparing to another "Galapogos" and the like mentionings.

IMO, tape still makes the most sense. Utilize it until alternate mem options grow into it's own.

"David, I use , on average, anywhere from 10 to 20 cassettes per week. Been doing this for years. I've yet to encounter any problems with tape stretching, flaking, or anything causing dropouts. True, it may be due to my environmentally friendly shooting conditions [an auditorium that's climate controlled for humans to survive in] and my restricted use of the tapes [write once, play once for capture, put away]. $10 a tape would make this prohibitively expensive. At $2, tape becomes a commodity, and as long as it does it's job, I'm perfectly happy."

Just saying what COULD happen, not necessarily that it will. I've seen, for example, TDK tapes flake.

You wanted to know why people would buy more expensive tape. I'm providing an answer. Especially when there's a lot of money riding on what you shoot, it starts to make sense not to take chances on avoidable errors.

"Boy, some of you must not take basic care of your transports (or are trying a bit hard to justify one's latest purchase?)...cause I've only seen tape issues on a rare occasion. Even then it was a quick dropout at best. Of course, using a single tape over and over past it's suggested use isn't what anybody would consider wise.

But some of these replies are reminiscent of the hopeful, nerdy BS in "having to move to BlueRay to thoroughly enjoy/see a film".
Do you really think flashmem is ironclad?...if so I've got several dead units you can buy.

Anyone care to reiterate the price of the 32gb flash? What will it be in '09? Is 32gb even close to enough anyway without driving you bonkers worrying about space with any more serious projects?

I think the answer is still staring the consumer/prosumer right in the face - go price any tape (even the high quality). Then add up flash mem cost vs. their limited length (and then factor in how you're handling/carrying the extra flashmem - another worry when you're out
on a fun trip/whatever. They aren't infalliable, not at all).

Most signs point to tape still being the smartest choice. Yes you have to take the time dumping it over, but come on...is this really that difficult or strenuous? Do you REALLY need to get that same Disneyworld or magic Mountain crap into your editor a bit faster than tape?...at the expense of limited mem space?
* not that those places aren't fun/valid...just comparing to another "Galapogos" and the like mentionings.

IMO, tape still makes the most sense. Utilize it until alternate mem options grow into it's own."

With all due respect, you're pretty much at the beginning of the objection cycle here, bringing up points that pretty much everyone asks before they ever try a non-tape-based workflow and really understand its advantages. Many of us dealt with each and every one of these questions/issues YEARS ago, and since have been happy as all get out being away from tape. Suffice it to say, the advantages immeasurably outweigh the drawbacks, and I no longer see much reason to commit my images to a long clumsy strip of magnetized garbage bag.

Now, tape may make the most sense for YOU right now, but you shouldn't presume to tell the rest of us what makes sense for US . . .

David Jimmerson,

This is a msg board. There was a post made by a person named Bit of byte.

There are many replies that follow.

The reply from me is my opinion in hopes to help answer the question posted. The short reply to you on this would be: I could care less what you prefer, I wasn't replying to you.
If you prefer to utilize expensive and limited flash mem then great. I can only offer a response based on what I've seen in use and what my friends who are out with cam in tow even more than I experience.

As for the overblown malarky builiding in some replies ....making it seem like (suddenly) 1 out of every 2 tapes you buy are going to fail; well, I think another real world reply is fair to offer. Don't you? or should we invent a bunch of BS failure rates just to help make room for today's latest?

Now IMO (re-read the "IMO"), it looks like a lot of hard sell building up (or maybe justification of a purchase, etc.)... guiding another to play guinea pig to the latest (yet not necessarily greatest). Hence, why I replied with MY opinion and take, which happens to favor tape over flashmem right now. It was not intended to demean you and your choice in any way.

I'm saying that when we take an honest A/B with tape vs. flash mem, we really should cut out some of the BS of overblown tape failure rates (that interestingly now seem to be such a problem to those who purchased todays these tapeless consumer/prosumer cams), As well, maybe we shouldn't gloss over the fact that mem cards are FAR from infalliable. I've had plenty of them take a dirt nap in their rather short life span. Many have.

So, if you want to read it as my telling some user/all users here what is good - what is bad, that's not my problem...it's yours.

Or maybe your suggestion is somehow more valid than mine (just because you said so btw), or maybe you're being defensive about your latest purchase/choice, or maybe you really do manage to have issue after issue with tape based cams?...
i dunno, that's your problem. In the end the reply is my opinion and experience - not yours. Capice?

I'm happy you're happy with getting away from tape. I'm saying IMO it ain't there yet and I can't recommend it.

JFJ,

Yes, this is a message board, and if you're going to respond to a specific post, especially in a thread this long on a board which doesn't allow nested replies, you should probably reference the post to which you're responding.

Your post, addressing no one specific, looks to all the world as saying "you people are deluded. Tape is where you should should be." If that's not the conclusion you wanted people to draw, then you should be more clear.



"Or maybe your suggestion is somehow more valid than mine"

I didn't suggest anything. I didn't tell anyone what they should or shouldn't use.



"or maybe you're being defensive about your latest purchase/choice,"

Not being a moron, I don't buy into a workflow until I know it suits me, and I don't stick with/defend a workflow if it no longer suits my needs just because I paid for it.


"or maybe you really do manage to have issue after issue with tape based cams?"

Just the typical stuff, plus all the limitations you don't really appreciate AS limitations until you don't have to deal with them anymore.


"In the end the reply is my opinion and experience - not yours. Capice?"

And that's fine. But you need to more clear; you made a pretty sweeping blanket statement.

To which I responded with MY opinion and experience.

Which includes, re: tapeless workflow: it IS there, and I do recommend it, especially if you shoot and edit a lot of video.

Overall, tapeless would be great. There are a few cases where it could actually make you competitive for a job because of the ingest time saved, and the rest of the time it could just make your life better.

There are also times when tape is still the only way to go. Not because it's more or less robust, just because it's more practical in specific situations.

It's not at all cut and dried just yet but it seems that for general purposes tapeless does the job just fine and adds a bit of convenience too.

Rob

I've got to say that in the course of 12 years freelancing the only times I saw real tape failure it happened across entire cartons of tape. It wasn't really all that random.

Rob

Yep, I moved over to SD cards. Really like the workflow, picture quality's great. Best of all, I can review shots in the field without worrying about taping over something.I can also log footage in the camera and not import clips I don't like. Much faster overall.

I can review shots in the field without worrying about taping over somethingThat's a good one. Didn't know about that advantage. Very useful.