Why does AVI degrade type so much?

fbx wrote on 12/11/2002, 1:17 AM
I've saved several slideshows and video with supers to AVI thinking this would preserve highest quality audion and video. Well, it doesn't seem to work. When I play the AVI files on computer the type (even large 72-96 point) is radically degraded, fuzzy edges, unformed, etc. I think, ironically, when brought back into VF and re-output as either MPG1 or MPG2 file, this type clears up considerably.

THough It's also true there is a degradation in image quality when you save a photo to AVI and then bring it back into VF and output it as DVD MPG2 file--has compression distortions like aggressive JPG compression artifacts (fuzzy, slight haloing, etc).

Is there any way to output a file the MAINTAINS FULL RESOLUTION of the input materials, so that the file may then be brought back into VF without loss of quality?

Thanks--

Comments

discdude wrote on 12/11/2002, 9:16 AM
What codec are you using for your AVI files? There are some excellent codecs available, not everyone uses them.

MPEG might look better since MPEG tends to smooth the image out. Real Video does the same.
fbx wrote on 12/11/2002, 7:37 PM
Am using whatever came with VF to make AVI. Have not looked closely at it, just checked the res etc and assumed the default settings were a good example.

Is there a better arrangement?

philfort wrote on 12/12/2002, 1:46 AM
Try using the DV codec when saving an avi. It should be higher quality than mpeg, and show almost no degradation.

If you really want to render an avi with absolutely no degradation, save it uncompressed. (Make sure the size and frame rate are what you want). In my case though, if I save an uncompressed avi, my computer is not powerful enough to play the result in realtime, since there is so much data.

discdude wrote on 12/13/2002, 7:19 AM
Just took a look at the "Default Template (uncompressed)." Is it just my computer or is everyone settings the same as mine: 434x226x32, 15.000 fps video. Los_santos, if this is the case, rendering at this setting will degrade quality. Philfort recommended saving as DV which isn't a bad idea. If you want truly lossless video, save as uncompressed 720x480 29.97 video. Watch out, the file size will be huge.
IanG wrote on 12/13/2002, 4:41 PM
I don't know if either of us has a unique setting, but mine's 720x576x32, 25.000 fps video. The quality's excellent!

Ian G.
discdude wrote on 12/13/2002, 9:26 PM
Just double-checked. The "Default Template (uncompressed)" uses whatever your project settings are. I forgot that I was working on some graphics for the web.
fbx wrote on 12/14/2002, 12:32 AM
Did this test with several text sizes 24pt to 72pt and diff styles serif and sans-serif:

When Rendered with template: NTSC DV
Description:
Audio: 48 KHz, 16-bit, Stereo. PCM (uncompressed).
Video: 29.97 fps, 720x480, Lower field first.
Pixel Aspect Ratio: .909. OpenDML compatible.
NTSC DV video files compatible with Sonic Foundry Video Capture.
Quality seems very bad.

However,
When rendered with template: Default Template (Uncompressed)
Description:
Render 720x480x32, 29.970 fps video with 44,100 Hz, 16-bit, Stereo audio

The quality is pretty darn good.

In both cases i turned fast video resizing OFF
discdude wrote on 12/14/2002, 8:59 AM
Could you capture a still image of the problem and post it somewhere?
Grazie wrote on 12/14/2002, 4:18 PM
Yes - I'd like to see it too!

Grazie
mark_f1man wrote on 12/17/2002, 9:44 PM
I've got a similar problem. Steps I took:

- Created a test file with format set to PAL DV
- Added a solid colour in the Video field
- Added a default text in the Video Overlay field
- In Make Movie selected the .avi file type with template PAL DV

Result: Produced PAL DV AVI file quality is crap

I played with the following settings with no improvement:
- Always use Sonic Foundry DV reader
- Strictly conform to AVI2 specification

If I output Uncompressed AVI the quality is excellent - except the file size is around 200Mb rather than 20Mb for my short test clip.

I found the following thread:
http://www.sonicfoundry.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?MessageID=96586&Page=0

Based on this I did a couple of tests. Using the created PAL DV AVI I converted this using a couple of different programs:
- Used ULead DVD MovieFactory to convert to PAL DVD (MPEG2). This produced garbage.
- Used TMPGEnc to convert to PAL VCD (MPEG1). This produced a reasonable result (given VCD quality) being of better quality than the source PAL DV AVI at 1/20th the size (around 1Mb).

Any ideas on what is happening here? It appears to me to be a problem with the DV AVI codec.

For reference I have posted some screendumps here:
http://www.pbase.com/mark_f1man/video_factory

VideoFactory version is 2.0c (build 125), on Windows XP Pro
philfort wrote on 12/18/2002, 2:18 AM
Hmm... I did the same thing you did, and the resulting PAL DV avi looked fine. Way better than the screenshot you have on pbase.
I'm also using Win XP PRo and build 125 of VF.

In windows, right-click the file and choose properties, and go to the Summary tab. Make sure you click the Advanced button. What does it say for Video compression? Mine says DVSoft(TM). Also, check that Width and Height say 720 and 576 respectively.
discdude wrote on 12/18/2002, 8:05 AM
OK, I know what the problem is now. No one actually prints to tape to check quality, everyone uses Windows Media Player (or Real Player which actually uses Windows Media Player for playback of AVI's). The problem is that the MS codec defaults to half quality on playback. To change the default settings, you need to access the MS DV Video Decoder DirectShow filter properties page.

The easiest way to do this is to open your DV file up in the old Microsoft Media Player 6.4 and right click on the video, select properties, the Advanced tab, then finally DV Video Decoder. Those with XP have Media Player 6.4 installed by default on their system although MS didn't bother to put a shortcut to it. Just search your drive for "mplayer2.exe" I have no idea why MS removed the ability to change filter properties in Media Player 7 and 8. Hopefully, it will be back in 9 (haven't tired the beta yet).

mark_f1man, the Ulead problems are unrelated to this and is another problem entirely.
Chienworks wrote on 12/18/2002, 9:53 AM
In Media Player 7, go to Tools / Options / Performance. Move the Digital Video (DV) settings: all the way to the right, to Large.
mark_f1man wrote on 12/18/2002, 5:28 PM
Thanks all, the setting changes to Media Player have certainly made a big difference! I doubt I would have ever stumbled across those changes without your help.

As to the ULead MovieFactory problem I had to do the following:

In Make Movie goto Advanced Render
Select the PAL DV template
Goto Custom
Goto Video tab
Uncheck 'Create an OpenDML (AVI Version 2.0) compatible file'

Presumably MovieFactory is not compatible with AVI2? I notice on the ULead site that there is a MovieFactory V2.
fbx wrote on 12/18/2002, 7:44 PM
This is very similar to what I saw with the compressed vs uncompressed DVI. I note that the same material, rendered to either MPG1 or MPG2 provide good to excellent results.

And as I recall the uncompressed DVI, run back through VF and output as MPG, looks fine.

los