Bob, If I'm reading correctly (five up), you are saying that Premiere's preview is emulating player levels, without altering the pipeline input or output. You are also saying that this is a fixed adjustment, meaning that source levels outside 16-235 range do not show in the preview (without intervention), much the same effect as if we temporarily applied a Computer RGB filter in Vegas?

This confirms what I thought, and I think this is as close as we will get to agreement on this. I am convinced that the "Vegas" way and the "PPro" way each have their advantages. So why couldn't Sony include a button that simulates 601/709 player levels without having to filter the output? That would be so much less confusing than the way it is now!

That would make guys like me happy, guys like you happy, and might even contribute to harmony among the hemispheres (ok, maybe not "quite" that far). Couldn't someone write a little script while we're waiting on Sony?

"To me this only says some better, easier to use output options might be fine. I can't see what's wrong with - for processing until it's time to export - using a 0-255 signal just as it is and without dropping 14 percent of the small 8 bit bandwidth just for the display adaption."
This is a misconception spread widely.

I too believed it was that simple. Now try overlaying text or graphics with camera 16-235/255 camera footage. Or, try cropping a camera frame say to 2.35 aspect. In both these examples, because the cropping area and text 'black' are really transparent, you get a super black 0. Even when you apply your levels fx for display adaption, its rendered out as illegal super black. That is wrong.
Then start the workarounds, a video 'black 16' track on the timeline the length of the project... Custom text that goes from 16 to 235 and not 0 to 255 as it is by default. Fade ins / outs are also at risk, they too go transparent 0, not 16 as we want in video land. There seems to be a disregard for anything IRE, the exception being the waveform monitor - and that has to be permanently on display in case you miss anything.
In short, for video editors (not compositors) Black should always = 0% IRE, and not 0. As we all know, 0 is an illegal level.
This is all well and good if you are a compositor, but real world camera footage just doesn't mix easily with this kind of workflow. And frankly, its a PITA.
The big red button idea would be wonderful, but remember its not just an fx filter slapped on the main video buss. As said, its not that simple, but yes, doable.

Paul.

"So why couldn't Sony include a button that simulates 601/709 player levels without having to filter the output?"

Actually Vegas Pro does if you use external monitoring. Though Bob pointed to a even more difficult task: Mixed media.
What to do if you have 0-255 JPEGs (which doesn't need any correction for proper display while editing), 16-255 camera footage and 16-235 footage imported from another system?
If you just leave all this media in one project the display won't match. If your display is set to decode anything with a 16-235 to 0-255 mapping the display won't match either.
So for this example each media needs its own kind of adaption. But - at the same time - you maybe want to be asured the display adaption of these files won't affect your processing or export in any bad manner (e.g. banding).

I see your point. Now what I want a system to offer is a way to let me see what the given levels are (what the Vegas internal preview does) as well as what the given levels will look like on a display which expects to be feeded with 16-235 (what the Vegas external preview does).
The steps between - to me - are a matter of color correction which I always do clip by clip (not because of those different kind of RGB levels 0-255, 16-255 and 16-235 but because proper and individual color correction is a most critical process imho). If I adjust my levels anyway due to an essential color correction I don't need (nor want) this step to be done by the decoding process.

Mixed media sources, background blacks, compositing and media generator levels, these are all things we're quite used to dealing with on a daily basis and they are expected. That's why we have event level and track level controls. A 16-16-16 alpha blocking track should be SOP in any smart workflow.

Sony is not going to succeed in stuffing its powerful software capabilities into a Movie Maker interface, if I may be so blunt. Sonic Foundry started its software on the assumption that people have brains and want to use them. An easier preview option would be welcome, although I'll still use the current one 98% of the time in my workflow.

I think your opinion pretty much match mine written in this posting.

.

" If I adjust my levels anyway due to a essential color correction I don't need (nor want) this step to be done by the decoding process".

Absolutely.
But colour correction is one area where we do need the waveform and others visible to avoid illegals. I said that a while ago.
MV - im not sure what your comment about 'people with brains' is meaning. If i read this correct, you're suggesting Vegas users should know better already? Isn't that a little condescending to us users who have been using Vegas for years and to those new users SCS are targeting so hard to sell to? Maybe i read it wrong.

Paul.

No Paul, it is to the credit of all the people who buy the software with the intent of undertaking the learning curve necessary to maximise their use of it. Sonic Foundry was considered geekware in the early days, that's all I'm saying, and I've undoubtedly offended a couple of soccer moms with my opinion of the "Make Movie" button in Sony Movie Studio. That's all, really. I still support a WYSIWYG preview option, even though I like the current one (this goes double for Movie Studio, which doesn't have scopes).

I see, thanks for explaining that for my benefit.

Paul.

"But colour correction is one area where we do need the waveform and others visible to avoid illegals. I said that a while ago."

Other way round then what some of you want is a "quick & dirty" way to input and output any kind of signals without worrying about levels. I second this if it's an additional option. Though this isn't the way I usually work so I'd be much disappointed if the base of Vegas' level processing would been altered to work this way only. And by no means the way Vegas Pro processes levels right now is "broken". It is a well considered way of processing which many systems offer.

Replace "quick & dirty" with "more efficient".

"I second this if it's an additional option"
box ticked here too. Good.

"Though this isn't the way I usually work so I'd be much disappointed if the base of Vegas' level processing would been altered to work this way only"
For composit work i would agree, for video i would not. An Option seems key.

"And by no means the way Vegas Pro processes levels right now is "broken""
Broken indicates it used to work and now does not. Bob says 'fundamentally broken' and thats right. It never worked the way 'video editors' wanted in the first place.

" It is a well considered way of processing which many systems offer"
Like AE perhaps, but its not at all like what other NLEs (read video) do.

Is this going to end with the well known phrase 'we will have to agree to disagree' ? :) peace.

Paul.

At least I think if we'd all meet in a pub there wouln't be a single boring minute … :D

haha!

Paul.

At least I think if we'd all meet in a pub there wouln't be a single boring minute … :D

Uhh, except tor everyone around us!

I just have a chance to test PPro right now. PPro by default introduces banding caused by decoding with mapping 16-235 to 0-255 (same as Vegas Pro does when doing a sRGB-cRGB adaption) and clips white of signals recorded with RGB 16-255.

I miss the days of analog tape sometimes.

Dave T2

Musicvid said:

"Bob, If I'm reading correctly (five up), you are saying that Premiere's preview is emulating player levels, without altering the pipeline input or output. You are also saying that this is a fixed adjustment, meaning that source levels outside 16-235 range do not show in the preview (without intervention), much the same effect as if we temporarily applied a Computer RGB filter in Vegas?'

YES

1) It is doing EXACTLY the same as Vegas when it decodes video.
2) It is doing EXACTLY the same as Vegas does if you use a Secondary Display as your monitor and leave the default sRGB to cRGB checkbox checked.
3) It is doing something somewhat different to what happens when you add the cRGB FX to the internal preview monitor with Vegas. I'll explain that later.

Both Vegas and Ppro will preserves ALL VIDEO LEVELS from Y' = 0 to Y' = 255 the whole way through the pipeline and into the rendered file.

The above is important in this conversation because it is different to what I had assumed based on information I had previously read.

Sorry to shout but in the din of a pub punch ups can happen when people fail to hear vital words.

In regard to 3), the problem with applying that FX to Vegas's internal monitor is yes, your video will look correct, as you say, the same as most players will display video and yes, you will SEE superblacks and superwhites clipped. The other issue though is the FX is being applied to the Video Bus and all your scopes are AFTER that FX. So your Internal Preview Monitor will look correct but of course all the scopes are giving you the wrong information.

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Just a thought and I could well be wrong.
It may well be that Ppro itself is doing nothing. Ppro I believe is a DirectShow application, Vegas I believe is still VFW. Given that it could well be the level conversion for Ppro's monitor is being done by the video card and it's drivers.
Cerainly when you watch a YT or Vimeo video that's what is happening. The driver knows that part of the screen is video, it handles the scaling, positioning etc and the level conversion, so the video matches the rest of the page / screen.

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The other thing that Ppro does is it makes an effort to conform what is put into a sequence to the sequence. You set your sequence to say 25fps and put some 30fps footage into Ppro, it will complain but get over it. The output of the sequence will be 25fps. Vegas sort of does this I think or maybe not, much confusion here as well, with Nested projects.

As I found also if I drop a JPEG into an 8 bit video Sequence Ppro conforms the JPEG's levels to video levels. This has to save major amounts of grief for newcomers. In Vegas you can preserve those levels all the way onto your burnt DVD and then the set top player will clip them and your photos will look ugly. Ooops.

To those who think this hand holding is somehow wrong in some purest sense I would point out that back in the bad old days many NLEs would not resample audio. If you dropped 44.1KHz audio from a CD onto a DV timeline, ugly sound awaited you. Vegas has always automatically handled the resampling, no need to connect your CD player via RCA cables to your VX1000 to get the audio at the right sample rate.

Bob.

So is this the reason why when I click on "Video Preview on External Monitor" I can change the look by using the "Adjust levels from studio RGB to computer RGB" under Preview Device in Preferences?

I turn on "Adjust levels…" in preferences and the display in "Video Preview" and "Video Preview on External Monitor" are the same, turn it off and there appears less contrast in the external monitor. When I turn it on, am I looking at levels from 0-255?

If I leave it turned on in the Preferences, is this what a rendered product would look like on YouTube, or am I missing the point here?

Bob, Got it WRT 3). The fact that the filter can be placed only somewhere on the video bus, and that there is only one bus would seem to be at the crux of the issue in Vegas?

I didn't read all this as some of it lost me...

Is there an idiot's workflow for all this like:

1. slap RGB LEVELS limit on main/end effects box, always edit through it
2. always use external monitor set to RGB or something
3. profit.

or something like that?
I admit I bought vegas out of necessity but am more artist than video tech, so am learning stuff far beyond what I wanted to, but have no one else that can do it. So I try to keep up. But Professional Video Editor is far from my goals.

Musicvid said:
"Bob, Got it WRT 3). The fact that the filter can be placed only on the video bus, and that there is only one bus would seem to be at the crux of the issue in Vegas? "

I would say so.
Perhaps if Vegas was a DirectShow app might also fix it.
Alternative there could simply be a button on the Internal Preview Window that in effect applies that filter.


Doing something to address this would seem wise to me. An increasing number of people edit video on a laptop these days and needing an external monitor just to see your video correctly defeats the intent.

Bob.

wwjd,
You have essentially four choices to see WYSIWYG preview monitoring in Vegas:
-- Use the external monitor at Computer RGB levels
-- Use a Computer RGB filter on the internal preview during editing, then remove it just prior to rendering.
-- Edit in the native RGB space in Vegas, then apply a Studio RGB filter just prior to rendering.
-- Edit in the native RGB space, and render to RGB codecs only (not very practical).

Each approach has unique advantages and drawbacks. Experiment.
There, I think that sums it up for now.