Sorry this is happening, but I glad to hear you're doing okay.

There is a right way and a wrong way to protest. This is the wrong way. I can't help but agree with you.

Be safe!

Agreed Graham.

But after they squash it, they should probably start addressing the reasons for the (less violent) multiple student protests, occupations at the universities, 500,000 strong trade union protests, and mostly the disparity of wealth that sees the top 10% having 100 x more than the poorest citizen in the UK.

We have the same problem in the US (actually it is worse), but unlike in the US at least you have a free press that covers the issues and is not owned by those causing the problems. Labor protests in the US get little or no national media coverage here, especially on television.

In fact the labor protests in the UK got little or no media coverage here in the US. We are taught that labor and unions are the problem.

We are taught by our corporate media that the average citizen has too much and needs to give up more while those at the top have an even greater disproportionate share of wealth than in the UK, but should keep their tax loopholes, reduced tax breaks, and outsourcing of labor because they are the "job creators" despite the evidence to the contrary.

So while the protests by those thugs should be stopped immediately by force, the underlying growing problems in the UK will at least not be kept secret from you or distorted by your press.

John

Look John! - You put up the barricades, I'll be amongst the first manning them. But you storm into my City centres, and start playing hard-done-by and that it's the authorities that's brought this on, and THAT'S why "I'm Looting!" - no no no . . . If you want democracy then get the friggin' hell involved in the dreary, boring process called debate - I have. I've done plenty.

There are massive inarticulate excuses being made. When old guys and women and children are being put at risk and needing to jump from 3rd story buildings - all bets are off pal!!!

" . . they should probably start addressing the reasons" - Probably? Most definitely. But here's the clue: The "They" are the "US" - It's us that's to put it right, it's us that's gotta get involved in the democratic process. It's boring, it's annoying it's often corrupt and it's often NOT what I want to happen. But I'll tell you what, it's ALL that stands between US and US. Anarchy is lame, lazy and without warrant or or authority. It's momentarily satisfying, but what it breeds is more and more of the same.

So, John, sure after the "party" let's get more done, but that means more people being involved, and in UK, that's always been available. All of this has been wrangled over the centuries: Relative Deprivation.

Grazie

I'm with Grazie on this.
It's been repeated numerous times in protests everywhere.
Peaceful protestors are pushed aside by those whose sole purpose is looting and destruction of private and public property.
These people have absolutely no interest in the "cause", all they want to do is destroy.
If there's a glimmer of hope in all of this, it's the people who are taking to streets today trying to clean things up.
http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/1036534 is an article in a Canadian paper talking about the real heroes in the aftermath.

Mike

Not meant to excuse their behavior by any means. Don't interpret it that way. I didn't write it that way (or didn't mean it to sound that way). Most of your protests (as I noted) have been peaceful. These thugs are trash and should be dealt with the same way.

You have a military. Bring them in to squash the thugs that are just taking advantage of the situation and victimizing the victims of what I described above.

David Cameron was just on and has promised 16,000 officers on London’s streets tonight., but what about Home Secretary Theresa May defending plans to cut more than 30,000 police jobs in the next four years?

John

I see this as beyond anarchy, anarchy does have a justifiable agenda, and into nihilism. I know of no road back from there.
These mobs do not want to overthrow, they have no manifesto, no new order, no goal other than oblivion.

Bob.

For those outside the U.K. who don't know what caused this, it was a known gangster who the police tried to arrest. He shot a policeman so the police shot back. He was killed, (those who live by the sword) the copper survived because his two-way radio took the bullet instead of his heart. So the feral youth's of London decided it was probably a good enough reason to do what they do best.

Bring in the troops. Shoot the looters on sight and if their parent(s) complain, shoot them too.

525 arrested so far.

Grazie

It's frightening and it's shaming. It's thuggery and it's criminality. It's greed and it's a lack of respect for others.

It certainly needs to be brought under control but I'm not sure it would be right to bring in the army as that would send a signal that this has become a martial state and that the civil authorities (police and parliament as well) are no longer able to cope.

A far more robust approach is needed from the police but the trouble is that they are condemned at every turn by those who shout about human rights etc., so forcing them to take a non-confrontational approach for fear of villification and prosecution.The police are thus prevented from doing their job properly and the fact that this seems to put at risk the civil liberties of our people, the security of our citizens and the safety of their property is thus treated as being of less importance.

Richard

Parliament has been recalled. I'm now seeing the SONY building smouldering. I feel quite sick.



.......

So Richard,

Isn't this a good time for the people to start screaming about Home Secretary Theresa May defending plans to cut more than 30,000 police jobs in the next four years?

John

There is a generation raised under the banner of entitlement.
Lots of rights and little responsibility.
Is the result a generation of narcissistic people who have been raised without respect for others or their property?
My guess is that the young people venting their anger in the streets are the product of parental neglect.
And that the root cause of the mayhem in London are teens and young people who have rarely known real love or positive parental influence.
The building block of society, the family, is fragmenting and society itself will crumble without the restoration of families where children are loved and cared for by parents who spend time with them, listen and model responsible behaviour.
Bringing in the military and more police may put a cap on the self centred violent behaviour in London and elsewhere, but it is not a long term solution.
My two cents, pents?

The Sony distribution warehouse. Haven't sony and the Japanese people suffered enough with the earthquake.

I feel the problem is we are told we have a future only to find there are glass ceilings everywhere. The rich have been consolidating there position for many years sealing of any opportunities and giving them to their offspring and favoured ones. Some try hard, only to find all roads lead nowhere. In the end you have to accept there is no way to better yourself only those greedy few at the top of society.

Most politicians went to the right schools and got selected to stand as politicians by party members who decide who is right. How's that democracy.

Every five years we get to vote in a new government Tory liberal or labour. The EU has no competing parties and will be in power forever. Their euro is bringing down the western world and yet they will never give up on their dictatorship. We can all go down the tubes but they will hang on.

The role models like crooked politicians involved in cash for questions Cash for peerages and expense cheats as well as backhanders.

Tony Blair took us into war telling us Sadam had WMDs ready to go in 45 minutes regardless of the rights and wrongs HE LIED to parliament and to the country. What kind of example does that set. Add in the inability of schools to discipline kids because of the removal of the cane and hampered by political correctness, Add in bankers who ripped off Billions and yet got off scott free. Add in massive migration and cheap labour from the EU displacing working class jobs. I'm only surprised there hasn't been riots sooner.

Of course nothing can excuse what the looters and criminal gangs are doing. But where did they get the lack of discipline the lack of boundaries and the disrespect for those they see with even moderate money. They will never better themselves or escape from their poor existance in schools that only teach you how to stay poor and be feral.

A constant bombardment from the governemnt that crime is going down blah blah.. But wait Suddenly we see criminal gangs and yobs everywhere so how'd that happen. How can crime be going down and criminals who can TERRORISE london EVERYWHERE. Lies lies lies from everyone.

Some people dont bother reporting crime as police don't have time or resources to do anything. The crime goes unreported or lost. The looters know they can rob and do as they want without being caught so how come they feel that way.

Some hoodies were upset because of constantly being targeted by the police for wearing hoodies. BAN Hoodies so they can be legitimatly stopped.

London like much of all the western world has in recent times slick politicians who have cheated robbed lied and SOME people are now copying them. Its really weird the police daren't do anything because of political correctness and if one of the rioters gets injured they lose the moral high ground. What a silly world we live in far removed from any common sense and any decency but the who is to blame. Those who lead by example or the poor with no hope or future.

Seems like the vote on election day is THE most important decision a member of the public can make and about time they stopped falling for sound bytes and slick image conscious politicians who talk like Jesus and walk funny.

All politicians are liars?
Maybe not any more than all people under 30 are self indulgent, lawless brats.
What if we take the high road and fight back at the polling stations, or better still get on a ballot or volunteer to help the disadvantaged, the jobless.
Life isn't fair.
Never has been.
Two hundred years ago London was a hell hole.
NO opportunity for the downtrodden then.
But people like Booth, Howard, Wesley and Wilberforce stood up and made a difference.
The ripples are still rolling, but now barely visible.
Are we at that crossroads again?
Do we need a new generation of people committed to positive change?
Is it renewal time again?
Methinks it is.
After all, what's the alternative?

OK, enough, back to editing.

plans to cut more than 30,000 police jobs

Would these be street cops, or might they be employees administering sensitivity training?

"For those outside the U.K. who don't know what caused this, it was a known gangster who the police tried to arrest. He shot a policeman so the police shot back. He was killed, (those who live by the sword) the copper survived because his two-way radio took the bullet instead of his heart. So the ferile youth's of London decided it was probably a good enough reason to do what they do best. "

A bit quick to follow the official line there.

The black youth never shot a police officer, never fire a shot. Thankfully down here we still have some form of independant media, read the latest here.

Ballistics tests have now revealed that the bullet lodged in the radio was police issue "and, while it is still subject to DNA analysis, it is consistent with having been fired from" a gun used by the police.

Bring in the troops. Shoot the looters on sight and if their parent(s) complain, shoot them too"

Now that the facts of the matter are known perhaps you'd like to revise that to "The uniformed armed thugs involved should be put up against a wall and their families sent bills for the bullets"


Bob.

view from down under:

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/anarchy-reigns-and-a-nation-struggles-to-understand-why-20110809-1il4a.html

view from down under:

Leslie, thanks for that article.
It was an excellent look at things from a different perspective.
The fact that over 2000 black kids marched peacefully to Scotland Yard with nary a word in the media is truly a sad comment.
I guess that the old TV news line "if it bleeds, it leads" is as true today (if not more so) than it ever was :(

Mike

"view from downunder"

Actually it was a view from London. Last para states:


And now my city is burning, and it will continue to burn until we stop the blanket condemnations and blind conjecture and try to understand just what has brought viral civil unrest to Britain. Let me give you a hint: it ain't Twitter.

Laurie Penny is a London freelance writer. Her blog is at http://pennyred.blogspot.com

actually the reasons for it are obvious - greed. plain and simple greed.

since thatcher / regan the driving force behind nearly everything is simple greed, from the banks through to the dispossessed masses all everybody wants is more, be it the bankers million $ bonuses, the shareholders bigger returns, the governments 'savings', the middle-classes bigger plasma screens, whilst the poor unemployed look on hopelessly as jobs disappear overseas, or are gutted of all benefits so leaving them no better off than being unemployed.

i'm only surprised it hasn't happened sooner, and in the us where there's already a mass of discontented (again, mainly black) youths living on the edge of a society that doesn't see them as anything more than a threat.

i know the bible says the meek shall inherit the world - but please, how long do we have to wait?

Another factor is "growing pains", young people wanting to assert themselves. That was borne out in an interview I heard with two girls. Rebelling against authority is not new. Some do it with body piercing, tattoos and outrageous clothes. They used to do it with rock and roll.

Grazie, protect your family and be safe!

"Ballistics tests have now revealed that the bullet lodged in the radio was police issue "and, while it is still subject to DNA analysis, it is consistent with having been fired from" a gun used by the police."

WELL, I find this a little difficult to believe. If a police radio stop the bullet, it must in the range of what in the US we call a 22 caliber, sub-sonic ammo or a plastic/rubber bullet . This type of 22 caliber ammo is used in cheap guns, starter guns, small game rifles, etc If I remember correctly, any form of high power guns are forbidden in England, so small guns is strictly an underground/criminal activity. Sadly, the years of conflict in Ireland has left the military rubber bullets a common cheap black market item for those who like to collect or use these for other reasons,

But the destruction is not justified no matter.

Be safe Grazie and all Sony forum members AND people in England!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
UPDATE from BBC ---- (just saw this on the BBC website, so things are being checked out)


Establish the facts

Mr Duggan, a father of four, was shot in Ferry Lane, Tottenham, north London, on Thursday, as specialist firearms officers attempted to make an arrest.

A key witness, the driver of the minicab in which Mr Duggan was travelling, has yet to give his version of events. He is understood to be in a severe state of shock.

Investigations by the IPCC show two shots were fired by a Scotland Yard CO19 firearms officer.

The initial results confirmed a bullet found lodged in a police officer's radio was a "jacketed round" - a police issue bullet consistent with being fired from a force Heckler and Koch MP5.

Forensic officers have told the IPCC it may not be possible to "say for certain" whether the handgun found near Mr Duggan was fired.

Further tests on the weapon, which had been converted from a blank-firing pistol to one that shoots live rounds, are being carried out to establish this.
Search for truth

The IPCC said it was not a replica and was an illegal firearm.

Further tests are being carried out on a "bulleted cartridge" found in the magazine.

Rachel Cerfontyne, IPCC commissioner: Gun found at the scene was converted pistol

In response to the findings, the Met said it was in everyone's interests "the IPCC are able to establish all the facts of the events of last Thursday so that there is a complete understanding of what happened".

An inquest into Mr Duggan's death was opened at North London Coroner's Court in High Barnet and adjourned until 12 December.

Colin Sparrow, deputy senior investigator for the Independent Police Complaints Commission, which is looking into the shooting, told the hearing the inquiry could take up to six months.

A statement released by Mr Duggan's family said they were "deeply distressed" by the disorder affecting communities across England.

It read: "We want to establish the truth about Mark's death.

"The family want everyone to know that the disorder going on has nothing to do with finding out what happened to Mark."