Wrinkles

Don Leonard wrote on 12/30/2014, 6:45 AM
I have a bizarre "wrinkling" artifact showing up in several isolated places of a 5 hour video, the source of which I'm unable to determine. The affected portions of the HD video show up perfectly fine in the project trimmer but are badly deformed on the timeline. The wrinkling also shows up in the rendered file.

I've created a snapshot image from the timeline but don't know how to post it here. Please advise how to do this as it will make it much easier to describe the problem I'm having.



Comments

Grazie wrote on 12/30/2014, 7:08 AM
OK:

1] Sign-up to a Public Share site - I use DropBox for this Forum.

2] Upload the piccie - JPG, PNG - to the Public Share site and copy the "Public Link" link.

3] Come back here and in a Post Mssage session use the MARKUP option shown here for images using that public link for your image.

Grazie

Don Leonard wrote on 12/30/2014, 7:59 AM
Thanks for the tip...I'll give it a try.
Don Leonard wrote on 12/30/2014, 8:31 AM
Below is the snapshot taken from the timeline showing the wrinkling problem:



In summary, the video was shot with a Sony FX1000 in HDV format. Editing is with Vegas 11. The majority of content in the 5 hour video is from the FX1000 tapes but there are also iPhone clips, digital photos and images downloaded from the web.

The affected footage appears perfectly clean in the Trimmer but shows up wrinkled on the Timeline and the rendered video, mostly in segments where there is quick movement.

Rendering was done in Main Concept MPEG2 (matching project settings). Preview window is set to "Best - full". Computer is a Dell XPS 8300, Intel i-7, 3.4GHz, 16MB ram, Windows 7.

Any thoughts on what might be causing the problem will be deeply appreciated!
musicvid10 wrote on 12/30/2014, 8:37 AM
Don, please post hyperlinks, not images of your url.
I'll check it out when I can copy and paste.
Sounds like your interlace/render settings are wrong.
Don Leonard wrote on 12/30/2014, 8:54 AM
The link I used was copied from Dropbox "share". Obviously I'm doing something wrong. Hate to sound ignorant but I need more guidance in getting the hyperlink and posting it with the proper markup language.

I think you are onto something with the interlace settings but what's puzzling is that I've rendered many HD videos without ever seeing the problem or changing default settings...
Grazie wrote on 12/30/2014, 9:09 AM
Yup, that'll be INTERLACE issues.

Grazie

larry-peter wrote on 12/30/2014, 9:10 AM
From your project description, I take it that you have a mix of formats and possibly frame rates in your project. The still you posted is showing artifacts from improper deinterlacing. This is most probably caused by the deinterlace settings in your project properties, but mixed frame rates can also cause clips to be unquantized to frame edges which could be an additional problem, especially with interlaced sources.

What are the properties of the source footage used (frame rates, pixel size, interlacing) and the project properties?

Also, are you selecting "best" quality (last tab in render templates) when rendering?
Don Leonard wrote on 12/30/2014, 9:10 AM
I assume you were able to view the image...any thoughts on how to remedy the problem?
Don Leonard wrote on 12/30/2014, 9:18 AM
Project properties are the defaults:
Template: HDV 1080-60i, 29.970 fps
Width: 1440
Height: 1080
Pixel aspect ratio: 1.333
Stereoscopic mode: off
Pixel format: 8 bit
Rendering quality: good (recommended in Vegas Help)
Motion Blur: Gaussian

I don't know the frame rates, etc. of the other video clips which I assume came from an iPhone
larry-peter wrote on 12/30/2014, 9:20 AM
OK, I don't see a deinterlacing method in your project properties. Is it set to "none"? If so, change to "blend" and see what you get. Also, if you are resizing any clips or stills - especially interlaced clips - set your video render quality to "best" instead of "good".

You can get the basic info about the clip properties by right-clicking a clip and selecting "properties". A small app called MediaInfo (free - just google it) is a highly recommended app to get all video properties of a clip.
Grazie wrote on 12/30/2014, 9:24 AM
Atom12 - yes.

Grazie

Chanimal wrote on 12/30/2014, 9:34 AM
Just to chime in, you cited using "good" as the quality because of Vegas instructions.

My understanding is that good is faster and does not re-render everything all over again (which could be a problem with mixed frame rates), while best will re-render everything to the same frame rate, "re-does" everything, etc. and may fix these inconsistencies (but will take longer to render).

I may have this wrong, but this is why you are being requested to render to "best" quality this time around.

***************
Ted Finch
Chanimal.com

Windows 11 Pro, i9 (10850k - 20 logical cores), Corsair water-cooled, MSI Gaming Plus motherboard, 64 GB Corsair RAM, 4 Samsung Pro SSD drives (1 GB, 2 GB, 2 GB and 4 GB), AMD video Radeo RX 580, 4 Dell HD monitors.Canon 80d DSL camera with Rhode mic, Zoom H4 mic. Vegas Pro 21 Edit (user since Vegas 2.0), Camtasia (latest), JumpBacks, etc.

Don Leonard wrote on 12/30/2014, 9:36 AM
Deinterlace is currently set to "none" but I've tried the other settings with no affect.

What is so puzzling is how good the image is in the trimmer but not on the timeline.
Don Leonard wrote on 12/30/2014, 9:38 AM
Continuing the thought, the rendered image is exactly as it appears in the timeline regardless of the render settings. So before I render, I see the problem which I had hoped would be resolved in the render but that hasn't been the case.
Don Leonard wrote on 12/30/2014, 9:44 AM
Aside from the FX1000 footage, there are two imported clips (no idea how they were recorded) on the timeline that are AVC .MOV files, each about 4 minutes in length. Could that format mixed with the majority HDV clips be culprit?
larry-peter wrote on 12/30/2014, 9:49 AM
Video render quality doesn't affect frame rate or cause "smart rendering" - but it does apply different scaling algorithms based on which setting is used. "Best" uses the highest quality scaling and should be used anytime a clip is being resized.

I believe the trimmer window disregards fields - Could be wrong on that, I don't use trimmer.

Have you tried a render with deinterlacing set to "blend"? If you are not previewing at best/full resolution you won't see the true results of the deinterlace settings. Test a render.

Also check the properties of the clips you are using (the right-click method will suffice to check interlace settings). Are some of your clips upper field first and some lower? Also, If you are mixing frame rates with interlaced footage your frames will not all be quantized so that a clip "frame" matches up with a project "frame."

There are a lot of things to look at.

EDIT YES, check the properties of the AVC mov files with right - click and report what you find.
larry-peter wrote on 12/30/2014, 9:55 AM
Also, I don't see a field order set in your project properties. Is set to "none", "upper" or "lower"?
Don Leonard wrote on 12/30/2014, 10:01 AM
One of the two imported clips was "progressive" which I changed to "upper field first" to match the project settings. The second clip matched OK, but with that change, I'm still seeing the wrinkling on the timeline.

I may start a new project using just a clip from the FX1000 that has the wrinkling and see if the problem appears. Stand by...
larry-peter wrote on 12/30/2014, 10:02 AM
A question I should have asked earlier - which source is the affected footage from? The FX1000? Did you match project properties to a clip from this camera?

OK, you already answered most of this with your previous post. In your test project, use the "match clip settings" icon at the top right of project properties window to make sure the project matches the clip you're testing. And select a deinterlace method other than "none".

And there is no need to set a progressive clip to upper field first. Unnecessary complication. Just need to know what you're working with.
Don Leonard wrote on 12/30/2014, 10:08 AM
I started a new project with one of the FX1000 problem clips. The clip appears in the trimmer and on the timeline exactly as recorded with no artifacts, so it's apparent that something on the timeline is causing the problem with the original work. Whether it's the .MOV clips, the digital photo images or the internet image downloads isn't clear but it has to be something foreign to the project that's causing the problem.
Don Leonard wrote on 12/30/2014, 10:12 AM
Yes, the affected footage is from the FX1000 and only appears in a very few places where there is quick movement. And, yes, "match clip settings" has been enabled.

I'll reset the "foreign" clip to its native progressive since that change didn't have any affect.
musicvid10 wrote on 12/30/2014, 10:21 AM
Don't, this is simple.
Your project properties should match the source.
You must select a deinterlace method.
Your render quality must be set to Best, either in project or render properties.

That should take care of it.
If all else fails try wrinkle creme.

Don Leonard wrote on 12/30/2014, 10:45 AM
Your comments are well taken but why would the problem show up on the timeline before rendering? It seems something on the timeline is corrupting the FX1000 clips in places.

I wish wrinkle cream was the answer!