"As long as a company has even one light bulb turned on and one employee, that person should spend part of each day talking to and interacting with customers, and there is no more efficient way to do that than in this forum."

Sorry john... but what total bullsh*t.

Just exactly how far do you expect Sony to go for the money you gave them? Software bugs aside... people seem to think software is so different from any other product with respect to service... why is this.

If I buy something from Bestbuy and want ANY kind of extended service then I have to open my wallet and pay for it Did you pay anything extra to be in this forum John?. Sony is ALREADY paying for this forum.... something they are not obligated to do I might add. Sony offers this forum FREE OF CHARGE to its users. Not that it's special or any different than most other software manufacturers... but people to tend to take it for granted. If you spend ANY money on Sony software you are entitled to this forum for as long as you wish. You don't even have to but upgrades. You could have bought Vegas 4 MANY years ago and not spent another penny on Vegas software and still.... you are entitled to this forum.

"As a few others pointed out, we used to get several posts a week from some of the Sony engineers here in the Vegas Pro forum. We now get zero. This shows a complete lack of will to succeed; no understanding of basic business practices; and a total absence of corporate pride."

That pound of ground beef you bought from the store the other day.... did the farmer who groomed the cow contact you for a chat? how about that lawn mower you bought from the hardware store... did the design engineer give you a call and ask how it's working? Did Ford call you and ask about that car you bought from them 10 years ago?

What is it with this absolutely stupid sense of entitlement people have when they buy software???

"This forum is a treasure trove of people and ideas, and it has been ignored, and is being ignored."
Yes... and it's also a treasure trove full of whiners. Think I'll stop here because I feel my blood pressure rising.

What is it with this absolutely stupid sense of entitlement people have when they buy software???I think this captures your main point.

However, I don't think the issue has anything to do with software, or beef. The "entitlement" you speak of is universal, across all businesses.

When I buy ground beef, I expect the butcher to have pride in his or her work, and talk to the customers to find out if they prefer coarse grind or fine grind. Is it important for the local population to have the meat ground with tools that don't touch other types of meat? Do they want information on how the cattle are raised? I can go on with many other examples just for beef grinding that demonstrate the need to be responsive to local needs (i.e., if you are a butcher in a Jewish neighborhood) and to changing cultural norms (absolutely no one used to care about how cattle were treated or raised, but now they do). If you don't interact and talk to your customers, you will wonder why your market share declines, but have no clue.

This forum costs virtually NOTHING to maintain. The incremental annual cost is measured in hundreds of dollars (the cost of the domain, connection costs, etc.). They already have the computer and web presence for other things, so incrementally, the cost is low.

As to your main point, namely that to expect these things and then complain when they are not provided, I guess on some level that makes me or any other customer with such expectations a whiner. I'll accept that. But if that label is truly deserved, then ANY customer has no right to object to lousy service in a restaurant, or a car dealer that is slow to fix a car and doesn't quite get it right, or a car manufacturer who creates a car with controls that, to some customers, seem to work backwards. Sony Vegas was architected brilliantly in its initial releases, but while the last several releases have done a good job of adding basic functions needed to keep up with the switch to various forms of HD, they have done an extremely poor job of improving the workflow and letting us all get the job done faster, with fewer errors or glitches, and with fewer frustrating afternoons or evenings "pulling out the knitting" and having to re-do things. This in turn is caused by a certain tone-deafness to those of us hear (pun intended) in the forum.

The reason why I think, however, that you are wrong to defend Sony Creative Software is that like any business, they have a legal obligation to their shareholders to maximize profits. The only way I know how to do this is for them entice more customers than their competitors, make them happy to part with their money to pay for their goods or services, and encourage them to continue to do so over a long period of time.

How many companies have gone down the tubes by creating a product their marketing types *THINK* their potential customers would buy?

A dumbass company ignores their customers input.

A really dumbass company makes no effort to find out why former customers left them.

Where do you think Sony is heading?

I work in Vegas pretty much all day, every day and I am perfectly happy with it. I have had no problems and I make a damn fine living using it.

Just because Sony doesn't have an obvious presence here doesn't mean that they aren't paying attention. This forum operates quite well due to its popularity and the quality and knowledge of its participants. Generally, if I'm hanging out on this forum, then I'm not getting any work done. I would prefer that the Vegas programmers were programming and not wasting a bunch of time here.

John, aren't you still running Vegas 7 on a six-year-old computer? What exactly do you want Sony to do for you?

It was just a few months ago that Sony released an update to Vegas AND gave us a 64-bit version FOR FREE. Some people are just never satisfied.

Ouch!* That's a pretty big wood shed you have in N.M. ;-) I'm not in agree with JohnMeyer about Sony, bur I do understand the basic analysis he used. The Exception Rules for this type analysis applies to Sony because of long term goals that Sony applies to their "products". If SCS products were not tied to other future consumer products development, then they would be in trouble as John suggested. But SCS has been getting more "involved" with other Sony divisions. Maybe Vegas future is questionable to some, but I think Sony is slowly chipping away the wall in the broadcast world, this could be huge!~2~3yrs ;-)

John, aren't you still running Vegas 7 on a six-year-old computer? Yes, but not for much longer :>

What exactly do you want Sony to do for you?John, that's an excellent question. In fact, this is the question which everyone reading this thread should ask, and then answer for themselves.

Here's my answer.

1. I expect Sony to demonstrate that at least they are listening. This is something that I learned in my first meeting, years ago, with business visitors from Japan. During the meeting they all nodded and said "Hai" a lot. I thought they were agreeing. I later found out that they were merely acknowledging that they understood what I said. So, whether Sony agrees with me -- or anyone else here in the forum -- I at least expect an acknowledgement that they have heard us, and understand.

To speak further to this point: How many of the dozens -- perhaps hundreds -- of threads in this forum about feature requests for Vegas have contained even a single post from Sony, at least thanking us for our input? Virtually none.

2. I expect some sense of direction. Some companies do this explicitly with pre-announcements, white papers, strategy speeches, etc. Others like to be more secretive, not only to keep the competition from knowing what they are doing, but also so as to not hurt sales of products already selling. Thus, a balance must be struck. Therefore, I do not expect any specific future product details or launch dates, but I do expect, through their marketing literature, trade show presentations, and forum discussions, to be able to understand the general direction they plan to take their product lines. For instance, many people here in this forum speculate on whether Vegas, including Vegas Pro, is to become more of a consumer product, while others think it will be focused more and more on high-end production.

None of us has a clue.

3. Personally, I expect an occasional email or phone call.

This may seem like a pretty damned arrogant statement to some of you (and I know that I have irritated a few of you in this way on more than a few occasions), but let me explain. You can type (the quotes are needed):

ventura "john meyer"

into Google if you want to know my background, but the short version is that I ran some software companies. I then consulted for almost fifteen years with startup companies. Snapfish was one of my clients. I charged a lot for my advice, and more importantly, I actually got paid. So, as the Danny DeVito character says at the opening of the "War of the Roses" movie: "When a man who makes $500 an hour wants to tell you something for free, you should listen."

At one time, they did (listen), and the engineers I dealt with were absolutely great people and top notch (although the marketing people never contacted me once --something I never understood).

Then, something happened. I still don't know what. No more communication. Years ago, they once wrote to me, asking me to quit being so negative in the forums, so I cleaned up my act for several years and tried to be publicly supportive. However, I once again am trying to rattle their cages here in the forum to see if someone will respond. So far, no luck.

It is not an encouraging sign.

I'm not the pirating type and never have been. Mainly because I was up before the courts as a youngster, for an unrelated teenage indiscretion, many many years ago and the whole process frightened seven kinds of you know what out of me. I save up for the programs that I deem necessary, such as Vegas and Windows XP, and also take full advantage of the many excellent free programs that are out there. However, I have always been of the opinion that computing, per se, would have died a natural death soon after it's inception if it were not for piracy. My first program purchase was a silly little game called "Frogger", which I'm sure many of you oldies will remember. It cost me $70, as I recall. An absolute fortune for me at the time, and turned me off computing for a good few years. Piracy is much less prevalent, now, than it was in the early days, where piracy became a daily challenge for many very talented people. They opened up the flood gates of interest for millions of users world wide and spawned one of the greatest industries known to Man.

John Meyer, for what its worth I completely agree with you.
It would benefit SCS and Vegas software tremendously by becoming more involved with their customers. Especially the ones on this forum where there are countless experts and extremely knowledgeable people.
To me Sony seems to be hiding behind some kind of wall, and I do not understand why.
I can only see positive outcome if and when they get more involved with their immediate customers.

Ted

John, I'm not disagreeing with you. It would be nice if we were able to feel more connected to SCS and that their future plans were based on an ongoing dialog with us. I do definitely appreciate two-way comunications. David Newman and David Taylor from Cineform are excellent examples of being connected to their users. Vlad from Neat Video is another example.

While I wish that they acted differently, the fact that SCS isn't directly connected doesn't concern me a whole lot. Adobe and Avid are MUCH worse and I suspect that FCP isn't very good either. I drive an Acura and I never hear from them asking me what I want to see in their next model. They must be talking to somebody though, because they keep on improving their product and I will continue to buy them. I'll continue to stick with Vegas and not attempt to rattle their cages, apparently their cages can't be rattled. I do, however, go to NAB where the entire team is available for discussion. That's where I get to have my input.

I do, however, go to NAB where the entire team is available for discussion. That's where I get to have my input.

"What Happens in Vegas" . . er . . "Stays in Vegas"? - Ah, now I understand the phrase too! How apt . . . . .

John, your input you have given at NAB do you see it reflected in the subsequent releases - only a thought . . .

Grazie

I can't really say that any specific suggestion of mine was incorporated into Vegas, but things that were discussed did eventually show up. Whether I singularly had anything to do with them is doubtful.

David Newman and David Taylor from Cineform are excellent examples of being connected to their users. Vlad from Neat Video is another example.I completely agree, and in fact this is exactly what I am talking about, and what I expect. They are fantastic.


I drive an Acura and I never hear from them asking me what I want to see in their next model.

That surprises me. I drive a Toyota, and I get surveys in the mail once or twice a year, and I get a phone call from the dealer after each and every single service visit.

I have an excellent personal relationship with the owner of the Acura dealership and I do hear from them after each service call. In fact, of all my consumer business dealings, the one with Acura has been the most satisfying. They treat me like royalty. But the Acura management in Japan doesn't call me for my opinions.

apit says ..... I think Sony is slowly chipping away the wall in the broadcast world, this could be huge!~2~3yrs ;-)


Huh ? I think vegas is closer to the youtube world than the broadcast
world,, cept maybe current tv. Several years ago I thought maybe they were headed that way... they took the wrong turn at the fork.
I use Vegas daily and will continue to support or not ,till it becomes obsolete. By the way my car delear is pia calls too much ,,poor idiots sold me a good car and I dont need an updated model :)

But the Acura management in Japan doesn't call me for my opinions. Good point. I don't expect Sony corporate to call me from Japan either. However, I have a summer home in Oconomowoc, WI, so Madison is kinda local ...

Well, next summer, hop on over to Madison and see what you can find out.

Well he's at it, I should pop by Pixar and get the scoop on their next few films :P

If only it were that easy...

It is so funny hearing people complain about piracy because it is "illegal", yet they don't complain about the "legal" ways we are raped by the system everyday!!!!!

Please read Cracking the Code, The Fascinating Truth About Taxation In America, by Peter Hendrickson....for a story that will absolutely blow your socks off.

In the end, everything balances out. I salute both pirate and lawful citizen in their attempts to live in this absolutely f#%*ing mad world!

Happy Thor's Day!

Well this thread makes me worry a bit

I am spending more time editing with Vegas and less with the other stuff

I use it every day and hope Sony Vegas are keeping there finger on the pulse because I am relying on them
i see Vegas as a winner in standard editing “you cant compare it to AE” which I still use
Vegas has almost crossed the road I am hoping they can cross AE compositing abilities with what they already have “this would be mind blowing”

I do work for a company that will change a piece of content because of ONE complaint “This is no exaggeration” one stupid complaint

I really hope legit complaints aren’t just empty echoes in a barren room but are responded to

Rory

"Huh ? I think vegas is closer to the youtube world than the broadcast" Well, yes. Vegas needs a lot of "free" attention from "starving musicians doing video" which turns out to a big source of local network cameramen. ;-)

I think, ;-), the real focus of the 64bit vegas is on mobile independent or network cameraman/editor/reporter, ( one man crew), market. Where Sony can offer an entire package, with service and friendly monthly charges based on "needs". ;-)

"Then, something happened. I still don't know what. No more communication."

There was a very significant change in the course of the ship.
I'd imagine the marketing guys realised they never had a chance at getting a significant market share so they went for the cheap sales. This is now done by marketing through high schools down here.
As Blink has noted there's been a significant increase in the references to Vegas in many fora, that's what's driving this. This kind of stratergy does create a healthier bottom line, it doesn't matter who buys the box after all.
I believe the sales increase to be around 50% so one could argue the stratergy has been sound.
The implications for the long term though are not so good when you persue the low end of the market and hang your long term user out to dry. I no longer recommend Vegas, I've had people who've taken my advice get burned and I've suffered considerable losses as well thanks to SCS's lack of transparency about their products capabilities.

By all means keep kicking the white picket fence, it would seem though others closer to home have been trying the same with no success.

Bob.

"I believe the sales increase to be around 50% so one could argue the stratergy has been sound.

Now THIS is a sound statement (one of the FEW in this thread) that I will buy.

The strategy HAS changed. I don't ever remember these so-called B&H deals in the past with cut down versions of Vegas before.... and it's a real double-edge sword. Sales DO increase and word does get out (and in fact has).... but then one can argue that sales and word are getting out to the wrong people (normal consumers as opposed to the pro audience) and does damage to the Vegas reputation as a result.

I do strongly recommend Vegas to others and will continue to do so but I completely disagree with this B&H stuff that's goes on. On the other hand..... these B&H deals do a better job at making sure Vegas will be around for a much longer time..... which is my bottom line.