3CCD or CMOS Sensor in ProSumer Camcorders

farss wrote on 4/11/2008, 7:30 PM

How old is that Dalsa article?
I'd think with all the high end cameras being CMOS the landscape has changed somewhat. Unless you're spending over $20K the issue is moot, buy what you like and ignore the technical BS.

Unless you're plannin on buying one of these from Dalsa then I'd even ignore the lens issue. Just because it says Zeiss it doesn't mean the lenses are made by Zeiss. Ziess and others just licence their name and technology.

Bit Of Byte wrote on 4/11/2008, 7:48 PM

WOW - thanks - looking to spend up to $2k on a new camera.

How do I know what lens I am getting then?

How can I be sure I am getting quality lens?

BTW - I am steering toward a HDV-MiniDV platform.

Bit

farss wrote on 4/11/2008, 9:20 PM

"How do I know what lens I am getting then?"
It doesn't matter. You'll get one of a quality that matches the rest of the imaging system. These cameras are designed by engineers who have generally got a grasp on what goes with what for a given pricepoint.

"How can I be sure I am getting quality lens?"

At the pricepoint you're looking at for HD you'll simply not get a lens let alone a whole camera that you'd call "quality". What you'll get is a remarkably good lens for the money because it's mass produced. Spend $40K plus just for a lens and then fret over the true optical quality and who made it.
That said Canon cameras generally have the best lenses, they are primarily an optics company.

There's far, far more important things to think about that do factor into cameras at your pricepoint:

Useability. Plenty of buttons that are in the right places for your hands. Does the tape go in from the top or the bottom. The bottom feeders are a PIA. Does the camera use digital or optical stabilisation, can you turn it right off, some of the Canon cameras you cannot.
Fixability. Sony stuff generally wins hands down. It's harder to break and easier to get fixed.
Audio. If you're serious you want a camera with XLR audio inputs and that gives you manual gain control. Cruddy video is one thing, cruddy audio no one will put up with.

And don't forget to buy a GOOD tripod. The MTF, CA and whatever else you might worry about in a lens amounts to nothing if the camera is wobbling around. Remember a good tripod will outlast 5 cameras, a really good one will outlast you.

Bob.

busterkeaton wrote on 4/11/2008, 10:02 PM

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000ENON1A?ie=UTF8&tag=ekajayal-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B000ENON1A

Bit Of Byte wrote on 4/11/2008, 10:56 PM

Thanks Buster.

I am concerned about Farss' comments about Carl ziess Lens are not necessarily real Carl ziess Lens.

Isn't this false adveristing (and illegal) by the company supplying a camera with this situation (non-genuine lens supply)??

Also, your thoughts on the Sony HC9 - in light of the crtieria you mentioned??

Bit

busterkeaton wrote on 4/12/2008, 12:01 AM

Bit,

Of course you are. Of course, you're concerned, because you're a worrier.

You are worrying way too much.

Have you ever heard the phrase a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing? You're suffering from it.

You're buying a $2,000 camera, you don't have to worry if the lens is the same as a professional prime lens. It's not. It's never going to be. Here's the good news. That $60,000 lens won't go on your camera anyway, because it's a fixed lens.

Ralph Lauren and Calvin Klein don't actually sew the clothing you buy from them, it doesn't mean that Polo shirt you bought is counterfeit.

Never used the Sony HC9, lots of folks here liked the HC7 and the nine is the upgrade to that. If you are thinking of HDV for around $1,000 it's the HC7/9 vs the Canon HV20/30. The Canons do 1920 x 1080.

Bit Of Byte wrote on 4/12/2008, 12:32 AM

Thanks Buster - Your'e right.

HV30 vs HC9 - that't waht I've boile ddown to...

Bit

farss wrote on 4/12/2008, 1:19 AM

If you're quick you might get this HVR-A1U for under $2K. Although it's a bottom loader they're very tough, has everything you need, not too shabby in low light, has balanced audio and are pretty dang tough.
We've had the cases on ours crack when they were used as crash cams mounted on the outside of vehicles but they've never missed a beat.

Bob.

busterkeaton wrote on 4/12/2008, 1:52 AM

Bob, my link above is also for the A1U. There's a 300 rebate on them that just started Aril 1st. So actually, a brand spanking new one at B&H is $2,150, so that's 1,850 after rebate.

Bit Of Byte wrote on 4/12/2008, 1:59 AM

Thanks boys - arent they a bit too big though?

Bit

farss wrote on 4/12/2008, 2:00 AM

Ooops, my bad.
That's quite a bargain!

Bob.

farss wrote on 4/12/2008, 2:02 AM

A bit too big for what?

One minute you're worrying about lenses not being made by Zeiss (almost all of the video lenses they do make are bigger than the A1U) and now you're saying the whole camera is too big!

Hint: The audio bridge comes off if you're wanting to take it on holidays.

Bob.

Bit Of Byte wrote on 4/12/2008, 4:57 AM

Hi Farss.

Sorry - did not realise the audio bridge comes off.

Looks a beuty!

Will check it out.

Bit

Bit Of Byte wrote on 4/12/2008, 5:19 AM

what year/month was thi sunit released?

How does thi sunti comapre to the Sony HD1000U?

Bit

farss wrote on 4/12/2008, 6:10 AM

The HDV1000U is a HC7 in a big empty plastic box. No balanced audio inputs. Down here it's sold through Sony's retail outlets.
The A1 is (was?) sold through their broadcast dealers. The A1 is over 1 year old which is why there's some good deals on it. Just because it's a bit older doesn't mean the new stuff is any better, more often than not it's a race to the bottom.

Bit Of Byte wrote on 4/12/2008, 9:07 AM

Farss,

Thanks - Do any of your colleagues/frineds have the A1 and if so, what are their thougths on unit?

I read a review on the A1 - saying that it should always be used with a tripod. Your thoughts?

Bit

Laurence wrote on 4/12/2008, 9:29 AM

I use my HVR-A1 on a http://spiderbrace.com/Spiderbrace[/link] most of the time. I also have an excellent offset that lets me switch tapes without taking the A1 off the tripod or Spiderbrace. A guy used to make them up and sell them on eBay, but I couldn't find any when I just looked.

I use the bottom loading offset and a Manfrotto tripod plate permanently attached to the bottom of my HVR-A1 so that I can go back and forth between the tripod and the Spiderbrace quickly and easily. It works wonderfully well.

It is really a wonderful setup for outdoor event shoots. I can get in and out of trucks easily and I can set the Spiderbrace rig down in a field without worrying about setting it down in the dirt.

Outdoors the picture is spectacular. even in the early morning and into dusk. Indoors I prefer the lower light sensitivity of my new Z7, but outdoors the HVR-A1 looks just as good.

Bit Of Byte wrote on 4/12/2008, 9:39 AM

Thankas Lawrence.

What is the encoding bitrate of this unit?

Can you shoot progressive frames on this unit?

Bit

Cliff Etzel wrote on 4/12/2008, 10:52 AM

Bit - I own two SONY HC7's and have been pleased with the quality of footage I am getting with them. The HC9 should do as well. The A1U has the ability of XLR which although nice, isn't mandatory. You can get similar results with a Juicedlink box for XLR capability if you need it. They shoot 1080i and I haven't found any issues so far that would keep me from not shooting in that format.

My understanding is the HC7/HC9 CMOS sensors are newer than the one for the A1U and as such, might provide better image quality over the A1U. The HC7/HC9 offers manual White balance, Mic jack, headphone jack, manual focus and manual exposure capabilities. I tricked mine out with doing a tabectomy of the A1U lenshood and use them on my HC7's.

Personally, for web delivery and even for broadcast (I know of an underwater shooter who has used the HC7 in a housing for broadcast on Discovery, Outdoor Life Network, etc), the HC7 or newer HC9 is an underrated camera. The issues with Canon's proprietary codec causes alot of headaches for many people trying to ingest their Canon shot footage. I personally prefer to remove as many headaches going into post as possible. Stick with SONY - it's proven and supported by all NLE's out there - the same can't be said for Canon from what I have heard.

Cliff Etzel - Solo Video Journalist
bluprojekt

Bit Of Byte wrote on 4/12/2008, 11:22 AM

ta Cliff - see me reply in other thread.

what is xlr capability?

Bit

busterkeaton wrote on 4/12/2008, 12:36 PM

XLR is the standard connection for professional audio. You can't plug a professional mike cable into your iPod.

It's one of the benefits as you start moving up to more expensive cameras. If you don't know what it is, you don't need it. If in a few years, you get good enough where you need it, they have adapters for XLR mikes.

teaktart wrote on 4/12/2008, 1:14 PM

I've had my A1 since they first came out and am amazed that it is still somewhat ignored in favor of bigger cameras that have many of the same manual features as well as the external XLR mic options, etc for a lot more money. And the price has stayed fairly steady at around $1900-2000 for 2 yrs now and not been dropped much to make room for a newer model in that price/function range.

As mentioned you can remove the external mic bridge and lens hood and you will end up with a camera small enough to fit in a fanny pack. I like that convenience a lot, especially when you don't want to look too 'professional'....
There are times that a smaller camera profile puts people at ease and/or you don't get targeted as a pro while shooting and come home with the goods (footage) others might not get....especially in foreign countries or where 'security' can be draconian.

Eileen

Bit Of Byte wrote on 4/12/2008, 1:29 PM

Thanks mate.

I love the A1 - looks very good.

Is the internal optics and features and sepcs the same as the HC1 as this is the body used on the A1 - I beleive.

Bit

farss wrote on 4/12/2008, 5:09 PM

The HC1 is the consummer verion of the A1.
All HDV camcorders record at the same bitrate, 25Mb/sec.
The biggest advantage of XLR connectors on a camera isn't just that it's balanced and therefore less likely to pickup noise and hum. It isn't just that cameras with them give you manual gain control and mic / line level switching. What is most important is that the connectors do not come apart with a simple bump or tug.
When you add a balanced adaptor such as a Beachtech the audio still has to go into that 3.5mm Minipin connection. They can and do fail, they can get bumped out. We've more than once had clients loose the audio for a whole show because of this very issue.

I'm no great shakes as a cameraman. I find it takes all I can muster to focus, get exposure right and frame the shot. I don't need the extra distraction of tripods that wobble or legs that slip. I don't want to be worried about plugs coming out. I expect my gear will suffer a fair amount of wear and tear. The consummerish bits and pieces aren't built to take the hard knocks. Sure I save money on the kit that I use, you'd be amazed at how low rent my lighting kit is. The trick is to know what to save money on and what not to skimp on.

Bob.