4.0C BUG

jnormous wrote on 5/13/2003, 8:03 PM
New (only in 4.0c) re-occuring problem found:
if a track is made up of different audio parts then the transition from each part clicks and gaps as it's played - happens each time, regardless of how many tracks, buses, plugins, etc are used.

a quick fix is to separate the audio and put them on their own track. hope this issue gets resolved quickly...

thanks.
(p4/1500, xp prof, echo layla24/latest drivers)

Comments

Geoff_Wood wrote on 5/14/2003, 3:56 AM
Your not talking about clicks because of cut-off waveforms at the ends, rather than at zero-crossings or with quick fades, are you ?

geoff
jnormous wrote on 5/14/2003, 2:40 PM
no - this is a bug, not a user problem.
try it yourself - place different (zero crossing if you must) audio parts, side by side, on the same track and you'll notice the audio stutters and cuts in and out as it plays - similar to if the cpu was overloaded (it's not the cpu).
thanks.
hugoharris wrote on 5/14/2003, 3:55 PM
Reproduced here.

Used Cubase SX to chop a continuous music wav into two parts. Exported each part as separate wav. Placed each wave side by side on the timeline in Vegas. Clicks and stutters noted at the transition point between wav's and slightly beyond. (44.1 kHz 16 bit PCM files).

Win XP Home, 1.6 GHz P4, 1 GB DDR RAM, M-Audio Audiophile 24/96 with up to date drivers, Vegas 4.0c.

Kevin.
hugoharris wrote on 5/14/2003, 4:55 PM
I've tested again using two separate wav files (two songs placed side by side on the same time line with absolute silence at start and end to ensure a zero crossing point, DC offset removed where applicable), and I have the same result. Interestingly, one of the songs starts with about 500 ms of silence, and if I zoom in on the timeline before hitting play the stuttering disappears (as it transitions into the second song). However, if I use a second wav file that starts near the beginning, this doesn't help.

I also find that the stuttering is dependent on the distance between wav's; for example, a 1 second gap still produces the stuttering, while 2 seconds seems to solve the issue. As jnormous has mentioned, the stuttering is not reproduced by two wavs on separate audio tracks.
CDM wrote on 5/14/2003, 4:55 PM
do you have quantize to frames enabled?
hugoharris wrote on 5/14/2003, 4:58 PM
I just missed you! I had initially forgotten to set the quantize...

As noted in my second post, the gap is not the issue. The farther away the wav's are (on the same track), the less likely the stuttering is to occur. Can anybody else reproduce this?
jnormous wrote on 5/14/2003, 6:46 PM
to add to the problem - it also occurs if two (different audio) parts are crossfaded into one another.
CDM wrote on 5/14/2003, 7:37 PM
I'm sorry to say (but happy, also) that I can't repro this. I've been banging away on a project with a couple thousand edits in it (all adjacent - it's an audiobook) with a bunch of Waves 4.0 plugins (notoriously hoggish) with no problems. They all butt up against each other either as a crossfade or hard cut.
jnormous wrote on 5/14/2003, 8:51 PM
just to cover the basics here - are you using 4.0c?
CDM wrote on 5/15/2003, 9:44 AM
always the latest. :)
hugoharris wrote on 5/15/2003, 10:18 AM
Charlesdem:

There isn't a problem if you are cutting a single file from within Vegas (probably beacuase the edits are non-destructive and pointing to the same audio file); try taking two stereo wav or video files from separate sources and cross-fading them or placing them adjacently on the timeline - still no stuttering?

jnormous:

I just opened a video project I edited with 4.0b but rendered with 4.0c; sure enough, it stutters at each transition to a new file (I don't remember this when I was editing), more noticably with adjacent files but also with cross-fades. Thankfully, the finished DVD is flawless, so the problem seems to be with the preview only.
CDM wrote on 5/15/2003, 10:36 AM
I can't repro this at all

winXP pro SP1, Delta 1010, ASIO
SonyEPM wrote on 5/15/2003, 10:46 AM
Ok, clean, new project in 4.0c, Echo Gina, 6.05 drivers, 2 different 16/44.1 or 16/48 audio files crossfading in a 16/48 (or 16/44.1) project...no clicking or stuttering or anything else odd in any xfade type. No plug-ins anywhere for this test.

Jnormous- Do you repro under these conditions?

Does this only happen with projects created in 4.0b?

Does this only happen when you have loop turned on, during the loop end /recycle to start period maybe?



hugoharris wrote on 5/15/2003, 10:48 AM
Interesting. I was using the WDM driver because ASIO had been unstable with my M-Audio Audiophile and the current driver set; when I switch over to ASIO, the stuttering is much better (although still noticable), and no more crashes with ASIO (I used to crash every 30 seconds). Which driver version are you using for your Delta 1010?

Just out of curiosity, can you reproduce the issue with the WDM (Windows Classic) driver in audio properties?
CDM wrote on 5/15/2003, 11:30 AM
5.10.00.00.29x12

I can't repro with WCD either, though
H2000 wrote on 5/15/2003, 12:47 PM
I have the problem here! I haven't tried this in version 4.0b, but I opened a new project, grabbed two .wav files, put them next to each other in the timeline, and bam! Following the transition point are clicks and stuttering in the audio. I used Windows Classic Wave Driver. It's kind of pathetic.

I'm sorry, but I still don't even feel confident enough in v4 to transfer a current project I'm working on in v2.

H

(AMD Athlon 1700+, 512MB Ram, Windows 2000 Professional, MAudio Delta 44)
Streak wrote on 5/15/2003, 1:54 PM
I had the same bug in 4c. Stuttering between two different wav files Also I was unable to preview audio in the Vegas explorer window. Also I had funky space bar playback control. After every few edits, I would hit the space bar to play back and the program froze. If I hit the space bar two more times , it would play. Happened on two machines with the same configuration. No Problems with 4.0a so I switched back. No wierd bugs in that version.I hope.
bgc wrote on 5/15/2003, 2:32 PM
Not seeing this at all here. 4.0c Win2k SP3 Athalon 2200, 512 MB, CardDeluxe WCD and ASIO.
bgc
SonyMLogan wrote on 5/15/2003, 3:32 PM
Would somebody who can reproduce this problem take a quick look at some of their project settings for me?

1) Go to the Project Properties “Audio” Tab and tell me what your resample quality is.

The higher the quality, the greater the chance that the time required by the resample will increase enough to cause gapping.


2) Go to the preferences “Audio Device” Tab and tell me what the “playback buffering (seconds)” setting is”

The smaller the setting, the more likely gapping is to occur.

3) Look at the actual events you have overlapped and see if the “Event Properties” information includes a time stretch or pitch shift.

Time stretch can cause periodic gapping when “Best” resampling quality is used in conjunction with low “playback buffering” settings. The problem is amplified 2x when two pieces of media are overlapped and time stretched.
imac wrote on 5/15/2003, 5:23 PM
I have had this bug with 4.0b

I reported it a long time ago.

I am really annoyed it has not been fixed for 4.0c

Playing back to the client with clicks over the numerous edits does not look good.
If I maximise the offending track the project does not click.
H2000 wrote on 5/15/2003, 5:48 PM
Matt,

1.)Resample Quality = good.

2.)Playback Buffering = 0.35s in Classic Wave mode, but the problem also occurs with ASIO (although not as bad).

3.) No time stretch or pitch shift on either event.

This is occuring with a new project file with only one track and no effects!

-H
jnormous wrote on 5/15/2003, 6:07 PM
ok, here's the test:
clean - one track - two different audio files butted together - no time stretch or anything else going on, no plugins, etc.

stutters at the beginning of the second audio (if playback is started at the beginning of the second audio - no stuttering)

tried but all stutters:
loops both turned on or off
48/24
resample set to preview or anything else
buffer to 1.00 or anything else
all available audio device types
then opened as copies in sound forge - resampled and changed bit depth of both files to 44/16 then changed the project settings to 44/16 - stutters.

this has never happened with vegas<3 but did happen with 4b but only when crossfading different audio parts into one another - if they were butted up next to each other it worked fine.

note: if there are other audio tracks playing during the stuttering audio, they are unaffected, only the butted or crossfaded audio stutters, and the song keeps its timing.

thanks.
(p4/1500 - xp prof - layla24 6.07 drivers)
klyon wrote on 5/15/2003, 8:04 PM
I've had these anomalies as well; oddly enough they will occur -- in the same way, after an edit -- until the zoom level is changed, but still can come back.

Intermittancy: the scourge of the doctor, mechanic, and software coder.

Luckily, the clicks don't turn up in renders.
hugoharris wrote on 5/15/2003, 8:28 PM
SonicMattL:

I concur with jnormous: changing resample quality, playback buffering, and event properties (time stretch etc.) does not change the transition behaviour. Audio events playing on other tracks simultaneously do not stutter, and timing is preserved.

I updated my M-audio delta driver to the 0029x12 beta, with no change in the stuttering. The behaviour is reduced but not eliminated with ASIO vs WCD drivers.

So far, two things eliminate the stuttering completely: zooming in (maximizing) to a high zoom level, or moving one part to a second track (which results in a flawless transition). I'm going to try going back to 4.0b tonight to see if there is any difference.

Kevin.