Amen. Going headfirst into a version 1.0 product is something PROFESSIONALS don't do.

Those that complain that the problems with DVDA are messing up their professional work should remember something - you have to be pretty stupid to hinge your profession on a version 1.0 software product that you never tested yourself. That's like going into the dentist for an extraction and as you are falling under the influence of the anesthetic he says "You know, I've never used a pair of vise grips to pull a tooth - let's give it a shot - it's your money afterall".
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I think what he is trying to say is that you should do what I am doing which is to keep the "bag" I received on the shelf and NOT install it until non-professional users help SF work out the bugs. I am using my old program VV3 and Ulead DVD Movie Factory for now until version 1.0 has been thoroughly tested by the people who aren't stupid (those would be the guinea pigs who are doing this for "fun"). When those people have thoroughly tested the product (hopefully "accidently" doing "professional" things with it)and SF irons out the bugs then we smart professional people can jump in....thus rendering us intelligent.
To sum up what he is saying:
Even if you know how to use vice grips, don't install the program yet.

John

PS: How did I do BC?

My motivation for making the upgrade to VV4 was 100 percent due to DVD-A. VV3 worked great an I had recently purchased Ulead DVD Movie Factory. Was DVD-A released before it was ready? Probably so. Was SF responsive to the my feedback during the beta period and after I had problems burning DVDs? Absolutley. Has the combination of VV4 and DVD-A siginificantly sped up the process of going from raw source material to a finished DVD with menus, 5.1 and chapter points marked during the editing process? A resounding "YES". Would I like to see the ability to customize the navigation of a DVD? Sure. Knowing everything I know now, would I have still made the purchase? With a smile on my face.

There are some things that still need to be ironed out. I tested the beta for the update and things seem to be working better but one thing I can say without a doubt is the SF supports its products, is very generous when problems arise, and provides updates several months after products are released for free.

DVD-A has expanded my horizons with very slick DVDs, has allowed me to save siginificant time in pursuing my hobby and SF's support and generous upgrade price reinforces my feeling that SF is the best software company I have ever worked with.

SF cares. If you have a problem--give them a chance to fix it; they will.

Overall, I'm pleased.

I BEG YOU ALL PARDON!!!!!!!!!!
Yes, DVDA is at version 1. Now, does it say ANYWHERE that it is a beta relase???? NO!!! Then, it would be pretty NORMAL for one to assume that it would be FULLY functional as advertised, especialy after same one forked out some decent money for it. Yes SOFO takes a lot of beating and humuliating posts, but nobody forced them to release this, so called, "Professional", software. Now, all of you that say "Professionals wouldnt dive into version 1 head first"... You're full of crap! No, i'm not a professional, and video and dvd are just my hobbies, but give me a break!!! I would ASSUME that based on SOFO history and other applications, it SHOULD be OK to count for waited te be released DVDA as main DVD authoring application. First your prise SOFO for their great products, then you flame ones that put too much hopes into it.
Hipocrats!!!
bcbarnes: following your analogy, when you go buy a car... you dont buy a new one... you buy a second or third hand (read version 2 or 3).. right? Because, as you say, it would be pretty stupid to place your life into something you never tested before, it's your money after all. BAhh!!! you're so full of it!!! When you go buy a TV, you dont by a new one, you buy version 2 or 3... right?
craftech: what's that remark at the end of your post? "How did i do BC?". To me it looks like all "postivie" posters were ASKED to post "positive", ahh, doesnt really matter. But it looks like when craftech buys a car... he let it sit for couple of years in his driveway, and then drives it like "professionals" do, he let all the guennea pigs drive brand new cars...
Now, all of you, positive posters, still mention "updates, "features" and "whishes" for same application you're praising about... Most of these "wishes" were suppose to be there to bigin with!!!!
Anyway you put it, anyway you look at it.. it still the same white oval egg... you look at it from the top, bottom, left, right and any other direction... it still the egg. Same applys here, 3 prise posts against what... closing to 300 doesnt make DVDA any more stable and feature rich...

P.S. All you "version dependand" people, when you get on the plane, do you ask what version is it? or you just ASSUME that, if it was released, it SHOULD be safe to fligh on?
P.S.S. Why is it ASSUMED that versin 1 SUPPOSE to be buggy??? Well, maybe someother compay could let it be this way, but I wouldnt ASSUME that from SOFO, and if they DO let THEIR costomers become a beta testers, I will be the one to scream and yell about it for as long and loud as i could.

CrazyRussian,

>>bcbarnes: following your analogy, when you go buy a car... you dont buy a new >>one... you buy a second or third hand (read version 2 or 3).. right? Because, as >>you say, it would be pretty stupid to place your life into something you never >>tested before, it's your money after all. BAhh!!! you're so full of it!!! When >>you go buy a TV, you dont by a new one, you buy version 2 or 3... right?

Actually, I wouldn't buy a car from a company that has never made cars before. I stick with cars from companies that are known for making good cars, and have been making cars for a long time. And then I test drive the car first to be sure it does what I need. Of course, I'm not a cab driver, so my profession doesn't depend on this car - if it did, I would be even more careful.

Let's get with reality, shall we? The software industry is VASTLY different from the airplane, automobile, television, etc. industry. All non-trivial software has bugs. To base a profession on the very first release of any software without first testing that software to insure that it meets your needs is insane. Because of the open architecture of the PC platform, it is impossible (note that I don't say impracticle - I say impossible) to test every configuration that could exist. This is actually one of the areas where MAC users enjoy an advantage - the number of different configurations is much more limited.

CrazyRussian,
Craftech was being sarcastic in his post and agrees with you.

John

"Let's get with reality, shall we? The software industry is VASTLY different from the airplane, automobile, television, etc. "

============================================
Does that include dentistry?

John

LOL - I sure hope so!

With my dentist... I wonder.

I say again, somewhat differently, the software industry in general has gotten away with BLOODY MURDER in that a few compaines have been lazy in dumping what really is beta grade software on the public as version 1.0 software and hoping the customers find the errors because the company is either too lazy, too stupid or too cheap to do so proper testing on their own. I am NOT referring to SoFo. I am thinking Microsoft, for example. In general SoFo offers GREAT software as I've said countless times in the Vegas and Video Factory forums. Which is all the more reason I get annoyed when I see something less than past offerings when using DVDA for the first time. I felt used.

It is the Joe Average CONSUMER that's to blame. For too long you've accepted the premise first version software is buggy. That's BULLSHIT. It doesn't have to be and should't be any more than any other line of business doing sloppy work and hiding behind an excuse, like oh give us a break its a new model, new design, produced at a new factory or whatever. Those are EXCUSES. Nothing more.

As far as the guy saying a 'professional' is crazy to use a 1.0 version of software that simply shows his ignorance. As I've said many times in the Vegas forum I and others were WAITING for SoFo to introduce a DVD authoring package. While waiting I bought a cheaper application. I was not about to blow hundreds of dollars on some other so-called 'professional' authoring software until I tried DVDA.

Part of my anger, actually most of it is in SoFo in setting the bar so high as it did with Vegas I expected DVDA to be similar. Maybe someday it will be, right now it isn't. While it has some nice features, it is missing some and for sure has rough edges. That I can accept in a 1.0 release.

But sorry, being a programmer myself for many years I know sloppy when I see sloppy. Version 1.0 was sloppy. No getting around that. The proof it was sloppy is how quickly SoFo is releasing a upgrade.

If some people get annoyed for me for expressing my opinion, my advice is either grow up or make use of the ignore user feature in the forums. For sure, I won't miss ya.

You go, girl!

>>As far as the guy saying a 'professional' is crazy to use a 1.0 version of software

Actually, I included the phrase "without testing it to insure that it meets his needs". This really isn't even specific to a "1.0 version" of any software. If you are a professional, and you have clients that pay you to get a job done, and you switch your main application that your job depends on to a different software package that you haven't first tested, then I stand by what I said - your insane.

I've been writing software for over 25 years, and the IBM PC software industry is the most messed up industry I've ever seen. Software is FAR too buggy. It doesn't need to be that way. But I'm sure not going to take it out on SOFO, one of the few companies that seems to be doing a pretty decent job.

I alluded to this the other day, I have no problem with complaining in a forthright way, I do however have a problem with those that seem to want to attack SOFO. I have been in video editing for a long time and have used many different products by far and away Vegas Video is the best so far. I have spent a fair amount of time reading the manuals and I really can not find much in the manual that the programs will not do. Knock on wood I have yet to make a bad DVD with DVD Ach. Truthfully I also have not asked the programs to do things that would really tax it but I tend to be a straightforward editor without a lot of fancy effects. I find that the "fancy" effects are pleasing to the editor more than the client.
I have been with SOFO since the early days of acid and have progressed to Sound Forge 6 over the years. I could not have dreamed just a few short years ago what I can do with Sound Forge and I have every faith that the Vegas product line will mature the same way.

Relax - wait and see - seems to be hard for Americans these days ....
I´m convinced that So Fo will straighten this out.
Aje
a swedish dentist

Datkj, ios hakd tw tkope withh thi s straightjacket on boing insane ald alll, Pase exse my typos.

BillyBoy,
Your contribution to Vegas Video users with your tutorials on Color Correction are so much appreciated I can't thank you enough.
VV3's color correcting tools were nearly impossible to figure out(thanks to a complete lack of information from SF)until you spent endless hours deciphering them for us and posting tutorials on your website on how to use them.
If it hadn't been for your efforts I doubt that any of us would have bothered with the tools at all.
It is also clear to me that the reason VV4 has advanced and easier to use color correcting tools is largely due to your efforts and for that SF should be grateful because you have asked for NOTHING in return for your efforts.
That you should expect DVDA to be well thought out before it was released is not unreasonable. There is no excuse for having a Beta release followed by an official release which is in Beta form.
There is also no excuse for anyone telling you that you are not cutting SF any slack or that we shouldn't expect to do professional work with the software because it is too new. Especially since those leveling the criticism haven't contributed 1/100th of what you have contributed to SF and the rest of us.

My hat's off to you BillyBoy even though I don't wear one.

John

Thanks John. I'm glad you and others find the tutorials useful.

I probably came on a little strong in my comments about DVDA, but hey, that's how I am now. I wasn't always, I use to hold it in, (not good) now I kind of explode, and get done with it. Hopefully I don't do it too often. <wink>. I had a boss like that once. He was the plant manager and I had to work with him pretty close. He like me was a terrible nitpicker, if somebody did one little thing wrong he would EXPLODE, a blind rage for maybe five minutes and you wouldn't want to be within a hundred feet of him when he did which he did nearly every other day. Fifteen minutes later he went back to his normal loveable self and would give you the shirt off his back.

I don't wear a hat either. Kind of an outgrowth of my high school days long ago. For some silly reason it wasn't "cool" in the 60's to wear a hat even if it was 20 below zero and so I didn't because none of the other guys did either. So there were these silly teenage boys with bright red ears waiting for a bus and nobody would admit there were freezing there..... off.

Anyways I think SoFo knows I'm one of their biggest fans. I do however speak my mind.

I don't know about the rest of you, but as I use Vegas and DVD Architect I keep discovering features that I like. When I first tried DVD Architect I had been using DVD Workshop. It seemed to me that DVD Architect didn't have all the same features. It took some playing around with the program to discover that the only thing I can do in Workshop that I can't do in DVD Architect is link from one video clip to another. I really like it when DVD Architect provides me with a preview of my motion menu and motion buttons, with audio, a feature that my version of Workshop dosen't provide. The more I mess around with this program the better I like it. I hope Sonic Foundry stays in the business of providing the best software and user support in the industry.

I'm not professional in this area, but I PAID AS MUCH AS THE PROFESSIONALS. Period.

Now according to BC's remarks, I'm demanding a "non-professional version 1.0 testing users & bug reporters' special price", for all the effort experimenting and wasting test-burning DVD discs that the PROFESSIONALS were too smart to offer and contribute.

I'm a professional song writer and I own a lot of pro audio softwares. Most version 1.0 softwares have bugs, more or less. But yes, more? or less? Less, you pass the test; more, you got complaints. Maybe in a bad tone from users that stay up all night just to find the bugs that bothers them. That's normal. Have to live with it.

Now make no mistake. I found a bug and I got an update to fix it within a week. I love SoFo for that. Though I wonder why the bug was there in version 1.0 from a professional company like SoFo.

Maybe there ARE people attacking SoFo. I'm not one of them. I got my right to complain. And I refused to be regarded as stupid.

For those who stay back and doesn't contribute a thing: you're not going beyond version 1.0 without what you called non-professional and stupid users. So don't play smart here. It upsets people.

Arys

>>I PAID AS MUCH AS THE PROFESSIONALS

Umm - I don't think so. You paid the same the rest of us did for V4+DVD. This is NO WHERE NEAR professional price. Professional priced DVD authoring software costs $600 - $1000 and more.

The bottom line here is that some people were offended when I said that "Those that complain that the problems with DVDA are messing up their professional work should remember something - you have to be pretty stupid to hinge your profession on a version 1.0 software product that you never tested yourself. ".

I stand by this statement. Are those of you that object telling me that it is WISE to switch in mid-project to software that you have not personally verified fills your needs? Of course not! It's stupid, and unfortunately, in this case, those that made this stupid mistake have gotten bitten by it. Some will learn. Others will throw tantrums and try to blame anyone but themselves. The difference is emotional maturity. There are more than two ways to handle strong emotions (rage, or bottling it up, which some seem to think are the only options). Face up to the facts - it was a stupid mistake. Don't blame SOFO, or me, or anyone else. Learn from it, and move on. Grow up and show some maturity.

My take on this is that Vegas is a pro-level NLE that has been married to what is at best (to be charitable) a prosumer-level authoring app. Vegas deserves more. I don't get SoFo's attitude on this, for example the latest statement from SoFo that there aren't plans to include half D1 (which is included in the DVD spec) in the coming update. That's not even at prosumer level.

Hey bcbarnes, if you're going to give advice about not getting emotional, don't you think you would help your case if YOU weren't so emotional yourself? And for sure, you calling others STUPID isn't making your look very intelligent.

You, having emotional maturity? Sure right, and Saddam is going to head Bush's 2004 reelection committee.

Well, BillyBoy, I never mentioned you by name in any of these posts, but since you obviously recognized yourself in them, I really can't say anything that would prove my point more.

>>...isn't making your look very intelligent

Yeah, right. Ignoring the obvious grammar problem, I'm not the one that screwed up, now, am I?

>>or make use of the ignore user feature in the forums. For sure, I won't miss ya.

I have never had to resort to this, since I hope that I can learn something even from those I disagree with. In this case, however, I'll make an exception, since there is obviously nothing that you can offer me. And, as I'm sure you can tell, I'm shedding a tear just thinking about it. When "billy boy" becomes "billy man" maybe he'll have something useful to offer.