Anyone using multiple angles?

jimingo wrote on 6/5/2005, 11:00 AM
I am creating my first project in DVDA3 using multiple angles and they are messing up my video. Because of the multiple angles, DVDA completely screws up chapter placement. It puts chapters where there are not supposed to be and chapters that are supposed to be there are gone (when played back on a dvd player...the preview is fine). I'm using the same media and same burner that I have used since version one and I never had any problem. I'm sure that this is caused by using multiple angles in my video. I am using 3 additional tracks as multiple angles and am not filling up the entire tracks with video. In certain places when a multiple angle comes in, DVDA3 puts a chapter there (again, it's not there during preview). Is anyone else experiencing this problem? If so, do you know how to get around it. I e-mailed tech support about 6 days ago and they didn't get back to me yet. Oh yeah, when my video is played back using power dvd...power dvd crashes because it gets confused with the screwed up angles. I have 40 videos that I have to deliver to a first time client by tuesday. I don't want to give them videos that don't play right. Can anyone help?

-Thanks
-Jim

Comments

ECB wrote on 6/5/2005, 1:24 PM
Jim,
I have tried multiangle with DVDA3. First, did you use avis,as recommended, in DVDA3? If you used mpegs then DVDA3 rerendered all the videos involved with the multiangle. This could account for the problem with your chapters. I only used avis and the samples I ran were very simple cases with only 1 angle and I had no problems with chapter points being lost or moved significantly. In fact I put a chapter point in the middle of both the angle and the main event. I set the chapter button to start with the angle video The only problem was when I played the DVD there was an instant of the main event before it switched to the angle.

- Ed
jimingo wrote on 6/5/2005, 1:48 PM
Thanks for the reply ed but I am using AVIs. I have three extra tracks with multiple angles and each track has about 8 clips. It really seems to me that DVDA automatically places markers where some (not all) of my extra angles come in. I just tried deleting all of my markers and reinserting them except I'm going to have to wait about 4 hours for my render and prepare to complete. I tried smart preparing my project because all I am changing is my markers, but my smart prepare failed...it said it could not complete the process because of an unknown error (this is another problem I'm having with DVDA3...my smart prepare feature rarely works) Sony EPM said that it was due to a lack of hard drive space but I have 20 gigs free on the drive I'm preparing to and 15 gigs on the temp folder drive. This is very frustrating.
ECB wrote on 6/6/2005, 6:07 AM
Jim, did deleting the chapters help?

Ed
jimingo wrote on 6/6/2005, 6:48 AM
Deleting and reinserting the chapters didn't work. What I did was fill in all the gaps in the extra video tracks with the video from track 1 so there was no gaps in tracks 2, 3 and 4. This worked but now in order to fit my dvd, the project is encoded at about 4MB/s. Without the unnecessary video filling the gaps, I was able to fill my DVD at about 6MB/s.
ECB wrote on 6/6/2005, 8:35 AM
Jim, I tried to duplicate your problem with a small subset. I have 1 video track , 3 angle tracks with 3 spaced events per angle track, and 3 chapters. I have tried a 'lot' of combinations of angles, chapters etc. and I can't get it to fail. I am most likely missing something or it may be a question of project size. One 'problem' I did discover in trying to reverse engineer why DVDA3 required a renrender for multiangle, which I thought was a muxing only task, was the closed GOP MC Mpeg stream has 2 B-Frames before the first GOP. They should not be there but I don't know if the extra B-Frames could cause any problems depending if DVDA3 pieces the mpegs together or the avis. All a guess.

Ed
jimingo wrote on 6/6/2005, 11:12 AM
When I get a chance (probably in a couple of days), I'll move my project to a different computer and try preparing it there. I'm not sure if that will help any but I'll post the results. Thanks for the help Ed.

-Jim
JSWTS wrote on 6/7/2005, 8:23 PM
With each multi-angle, do you have video across all three angles throughout the segment? For example, if you have a multi-angle segment in video stream 2 from 2 minutes to 4 minutes exactly (on the timeline), do you have video in stream 3 and 4 between 2 minutes and 4 minutes exactly?

Jim
jimingo wrote on 6/7/2005, 9:19 PM
Now I do, although I didn't when my chapters were getting messed up. Is that the problem? I didn't get any warnings before I prepared.

-Jim
ECB wrote on 6/8/2005, 5:08 AM
Jim,

If I understand you correctly, if I have three angles I always have to have video in all three tracks for each multi-angle event ? To take the point further, If I had a project wiht three (3) but I had a multi-angle segment with that had only 2 angles I would have to copy the video from one of the angles to the empty angle to maintain video in all three tracks? Are there requiments that multi-angle segments start and end on I-Frame?

Thanks for the info. I read your posts on multiangle http://www.sonymediasoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?Forum=22&MessageID=381884
which explains a lot.

Ed
JSWTS wrote on 6/8/2005, 5:45 AM
jimingo,

Yes, that would be the source of your problem, or at least one reason why. A mult-angle project technically is one that has video from start to end through all streams. A mixed-angle project is one that has multiple streams, but only segments have different angles available for the viewer (like your project). However, you can't have different segments selectively, ie everytime you have a segment in stream 2 (the one above your main video) you have to have video also occupy the same segment in all the additional streams.

Jim
JSWTS wrote on 6/8/2005, 5:50 AM
Ed,

You would have to put something in the other stream so that it occupied the same segment (ie all streams other than track one have to be identical in length and GOP structure AND must have some content). They don't have to end in an I frame, but they do have to have identical GOP structures and should be closed GOP's. Since it can be kind of tricky to encode, it's sometimes easier to let the authoring app do the encoding for you and just use the native dv-avi file.

Jim
bStro wrote on 6/8/2005, 8:09 AM
Anyone know if Sony would / has ever added content to the help file in an update (not necessarily related to a feature / fix added in said update, I mean)? Jim's info here should be in there, as I don't think it's "common knowledge" enough for people to just know. (Or is this already in the help file?)

Thanks for posting that.

Rob
JSWTS wrote on 6/8/2005, 7:33 PM
The information I posted on this and the other thread came from another authoring software manual:

http://www.sonymediasoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?Forum=22&MessageID=381884

The max bitrates per stream I quoted were wrong for DVD-A3 as Sony support pointed out, but the numbers were close. AFAIK there isn't any defined information on multi-angle work as of yet manual wise. Once you are within a project you can go to the optimize dvd dialoge tab and see the parameters for bitrate.

Jim
jimingo wrote on 6/8/2005, 8:49 PM
I'm pretty sure DVDA allows you to have events scattered throughout the extra tracks, rather than having to fill the exact same segments throughtout all the extra tracks. The reason is say this is because when my clips of extra angles were scattered throughout the additional tracks, the only problem I had was the chapter malfunction. Other than that, the DVD was Ok. When I made my DVD so that the extra angle tracks matched each other, I still had a chapter problem (even though at first I posted that it fixed the problem). The problem occured at the point where the video from tracks 2 and 3 ended. The chapter that was closest to this point was moved. I didn't notice this at first because it only happenes once throughout the video. So now the only way to fix this is to have all the other tracks filled to match track one exactly...and that doesn't make much sence. So what I'm trying to say is that for my project, it doesn't make any difference if the additional angle tracks match or not...whenever a extra angle clip starts and stops, DVDA3 places a marker (or moves the marker closest to that point).
ECB wrote on 6/9/2005, 5:44 AM
Jim, I was able to duplicate the problem in a simple case of one angle track with one event with 2 chapter points following the end of the angle event. All the chapters points following the end of the angle event were moved. The second chapter point following the end of the angle event was moved to the end of the angle event. I could not find a work-around.

Ed
JSWTS wrote on 6/9/2005, 6:27 AM
jimingo/ECB:

I don't have any experience with DVDA-3's handling of multi-angle projects personally. I'm still back on DVDA-2. I don't author much with DVD-A at this point in time, but still visit here and many other dvd forums looking for new info I can use, and help out from time to time. I use DVDSP, and the manual has a lot of information in regards to multiple video tracks. If DVDA-3 allows you to build a mixed angle disc (extra video tracks that don't extend the entire duration of video track 1) with gaps in some streams, then it's allowing you to build a non-dvd spec disc--and you don't want to do that (even if it would let you). There is very little information provided by Sony as to how the extra angles will work in DVD-A. It's not clear to me (based on your posts) that it will actually allow a mixed-angle project. It does appear to allow for a multi-angle project, since it will successfully build if the video streams all match in length with video track 1. In DVDSP a marker has to be placed at the very beginning and very end of each mixed angle segment, and there can be NO GAPS in the streams. ECB, it sounds like DVD-A is doing that--ie placing a marker at the beginning and end. You might try manually putting the markers there (beginning and end) as well as other chapter markers and see how that works.

Jim
ECB wrote on 6/9/2005, 6:43 AM
Jim & Jimingo,

I have placed a chapter marker at the beginning and end of the angle event. I have also added a chapter point following the angle event. When played (angle not selected) chapter 2 starts at the beginning of the angle event (where it should), chapter 3, placed at the end of the angle event, also starts at the beginning of the angle event (not okay), and last, chapter 4 which I placed after the angle event starts shortly after the start point of the ange event. I admit I am not sure how multi-view/angle is suposed to function but I think it is time to fold my tent.

One off topic question if I may. Jim, you mention DVDSP and I have read that DVDSP supports 24p (23.976) without 3:2 pull-down and turns on the flags for the DVD player to perform the 3:2 pull-down. Is this true? I thought the NTSC DVD spec only supports 29.97. Thanks.

Ed
jimingo wrote on 6/9/2005, 7:50 AM
I tried putting a chapter marker at the end of the multiple angle events also, and it still moved the chapter marker. I guess its time to call tech support.

Thanks for the help
-Jim
ECB wrote on 6/9/2005, 8:55 AM
Please share what you learn from tech support.

Ed
JSWTS wrote on 6/9/2005, 9:05 AM
Yes, please share what you hear from tech support. It sounds like true mixed-angle projects might be a problem, or there are some details as to how to do it that aren't clearly laid out.

Jim

ECB,
DVDSP does accept 24p files. The 3:2 pulldown will make it look like "29.97", and it will play that way on non-progressive devices. However, if you have a progressive scan dvd player and plasma screen (or similar device) or are using a computer, it will play as 24p.

Jim
ForumAdmin wrote on 6/10/2005, 2:40 PM
Thank you all for posting in this thread. We have identified the problem with multi-angle projects that use chapter markers in DVDA 3.0 and DVDA 3.0a. (Currently the chapter markers in a multi-angle project get mistakenly moved up in time.) We will be addressing this problem in an update of DVD Architect.

Also, to clarify a previous post in this thread, DVD Architect allows you to place multi-angle blocks anywhere on the timeline, without forcing you to match up the start and end times of these blocks for ALL alternate angle tracks. DVD Architect will align the blocks for you automatically by extending the angle block boundaries to encompass all overlapping angle blocks, and will render the same video content as the main video track in the necessary sections.
JSWTS wrote on 6/11/2005, 7:21 AM
It's nice to know the you guys (Sony) are watching the forums closely. It sounds like the problem was with mixed angle and not full multi-angle projects. It's nice that you have built in a process to 'fix' mixed angle tracks that would otherwise be non-compliant (ie don't match exactly in length). Other apps are less forgiving in this sense. It would be helpful that the 'rules' of mixed and mult-angle video projects were better documented. It helps the user to understand the process, and allows for one to create content outside of DVD-A that would utlimately be used and hopefully be compliant without relying on DVD-A to 'fix' it.

Jim
zcus wrote on 6/11/2005, 8:50 AM
Since were on the subject kind of... I REALLY think it would be great if we had an option to specify encoding values (i.e 2pass, bring up the Mainconcept plugin panel....) when doing multi angle projects

JSWTS wrote on 6/11/2005, 9:03 AM
I think your best bet with multi-angle/mixed angle projects is to use CBR anyway. One or two pass VBR for a variety of reasons can be problematic. Here is a post (I realize it has to do with DVDSP, but the principles are the same):

http://www.uemforums.com/2pop/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=DVDAuthoringCreation&Number=47021&Forum=All_Forums&Words=Multi%20angle&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=46033&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=7324&daterange=1&newerval=&newertype=w&olderval=3&oldertype=m&bodyprev=#Post47021

Authoring apps that allow greater individual control when creating mult-angle work (like DVDSP or Scenarist), also require the user to have a broader depth of knowledge in preparing and authoring the content. Greater control allows for greater latitude in what can be done, but also opens up the opportunity for creating a lot of 'coasters' or projects that fail to build because they are out of spec. I suspect a lot of thought was given as to how mult/mixed angle video options would be ultimately delivered to the DVD-A user base. Much in line with the original philosophy of the app, there is a fair amount of the raw dvd spec shielded from the user (by design). It strikes a balence between offering greater functionality, without being too esoteric or complicated to master. If multi-angle tracks are prepared 'just so', they won't work. Limiting the options the user has in controlling the multi-angle variables is one way of insuring that it works.

Jim