"Best" way to upscale SD 4:3 footage to HD

RedRob-CandlelightProdctns wrote on 5/21/2023, 1:45 PM

I realize Vegas has an "Upscale" video effect -- but the V20 docs only talk about the older "Smart Upscale".

So I'm wondering -- what's the best way to render an HD (720p or 1080p) video from an older SD 4:3 source? It's not being mixed with any other footage .. just two source SD videos I'm working with.

Looking for recommendations on render settings, project settings and whether or not to use the Upscale effect. If test best outcome would require retaining the 4:3 Aspect then I'd accept having the bars on the sides.

With Vegas being as intuitive as it is, I'd like to think that when it sees SD media on a 720p project, it'd automatically use the smartest methods to scale it up... but if so, then why would Vegas have a separate Upscale effect?!

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RedRob-CandlelightProdctns wrote on 5/23/2023, 11:44 PM

@Former user Oh -- I looked at Task Manager...

Topaz was pegging the GPU at 100%

Vegas is using about 44% GPU and 32% CPU in my current render which is doing Upscalex2 via MediaFX, NeatVideo with modified sharpening, no Unsharpen Mask but instead doing a Sharpen. On my non-scaled preview during the render it looks awesome...

I changed the Vegas project to 1280x960 to keep the 4:3 aspect (also changed my render accordingly) and recreated the profile in Neat Video to see if that'd make a difference..

Will see when it's done how it actually looks!

EDIT: interlacing still looks bad. Next up -- render same w/o Neat Vid to see if interlace problem goes away. If not, then remove upscale on media to see if Vegas deinterlaces OK.
DISCLAIMER: we didn't film this originally.. just helping a client/friend improve what he has

What is the order that Vegas does it's format conversions?
- Project settings tell how to deinterlace.
- If render is progressive, I'm guessing it deinterlaces timeline frames/events first using project/render settings
- Next applies media setting for the event (upscale)
- Next applies... Track.. effect??? (I'm guessing, don't really know)
- Next applies pre-crop event effects
- Next applies pan/crop
- Next applies post pan/crop event effect

Knowing the order would be helpful.

If NeatVideo being removed doesn't resolve this, then I'm inclined to think it's either the upscale or Vegas handling of deinterlacing. Sheesh.. this is way more complicated than I thought this favor would be!

RedRob-CandlelightProdctns wrote on 5/24/2023, 12:10 AM

@Former user Yeah.. new render *without* Neat Video is still really bad. It's quite noteworthy in the moments around 0:58 on his face.

This clip here is :

Media -- Upscale (scaling 2.0)
Event -- Sharpen .5
Source Clip is SD (720x480, lower field first)
Project setting: Dimensions are 1280x960, progressive scan, 29.97 fps.
Full Res Quality: BEST Motion Blur: Gaussian Deinterlace: Smart adaptive (GPU) Resample mode: Disable resample

RedRob-CandlelightProdctns wrote on 5/24/2023, 12:21 AM

An improvement -- changing project deinterlacing method from Smart adaptive (GPU) to Blend fields -- better IMO, but still some stepping around his collar in that same location (around 0:58)

I believe the "sharpen" on the event may be exacerbating that.. changing to "unsharpen mask" instead, and reenabling Neat Video. I realize I'm probably boring anyone reading this journey but hey.. maybe there's a useful nugget through the trial-and-error which might be helpful to someone down the road?

RedRob-CandlelightProdctns wrote on 5/24/2023, 12:48 AM

Welp -- I'm done here for now. This is now using same settings as above but Unsharpen instead of Sharpen up until the cut at 2:06. Stepping and interlacing seem pretty much gone since changing deinterlace from "Smart" to "blend" (guess it wasn't so smart?)

Upscale on media seems to soften a bit of the scaling effect.

Nagging bit now is that his face just looks... not great.. due to the sharpening from Neat or the Unsharpen Mask (TBD). I think reducing the low/dark sharpening areas will make it a bit more natural -- still not as good an upscale I'd hoped for but.. here I am... one day more.

crown2020 wrote on 5/26/2023, 11:58 PM

@RedRob-CandlelightProdctns

"So with Topaz.. what would the workflow be?"

Topaz would be last in my work flow. I would not use Vegas Or Topaz to deinterlace. I would use Happy Otter Scripts, (HOS), to deinterlace. HOS uses open source deinterlacing. It's WAY faster and better than Vegas. It blows Borris, (BCC deinterlacing), away! After HOS deinterlacing is used, you will THEN run that output file through Topaz. Under the very first Topaz "presets" option, use "upscale to HD". Under Enhancement, use the Artemis model. I would start with medium for the "Input Video Condition". The better you tell Topaz your video input quality is, the LESS work it will do on it. Use no other settings in Topaz. This should help. It should help A LOT. The Proteus model seems to be less aggressive in an "auto mode".

I also use hardware to deinterlace while I capture. This may or may not improve your clip(s). If you do not have the source footage, this won't matter to you.

RedRob-CandlelightProdctns wrote on 5/27/2023, 7:51 AM

@crown2020 thank you! I will give Topaz another whirl with these settings with the 3070ti and see if it will be less than 20 days to process my two 2-hours medias.

Wondering about HOS deinterlacing... doesn't it use ffmpeg in the background, same open source tool that it seems Topaz uses?

Up until now I never thought Vegas was poor at deinterlacing

Former user wrote on 5/27/2023, 6:34 PM

@RedRob-CandlelightProdctns I've already shown that Vegas is poor at de-interlacing. QTGMC is the leader in de-interlacing. Here is a video where the maker compares it with Resolve de-interlacing and tells you about QTGMC via Staxrip which I also use.

I do recall the user MusicVid from this forum didn't like the output for some reason, though I dont' remember why, so if he's still around you could get another opinion

john_dennis wrote on 5/27/2023, 7:27 PM

If it rains where you live you might want to read all 133 posts in this thread and all the branches while you drink cocoa.

Aliasing, artifacts and moire?

or this thread

HD to SD Challenge

EricLNZ wrote on 5/27/2023, 8:08 PM

My impression is that interlacing isn't the problem with the "stepping". It's there in the captured image whether it be progressive or needing deinterlacing. I wonder if the original was a VHS tape?

As crown2020 said in an earlier post "Of course, garbage in, garbage out". You could spend hours and never be satisfied with the result.

crown2020 wrote on 5/29/2023, 11:34 AM

@RedRob-CandlelightProdctns

"Wondering about HOS deinterlacing... doesn't it use ffmpeg in the background, same open source tool that it seems Topaz uses?"

I would not "wonder" about HOS, I would TRY HOS. It's a free trial. Every piece of software I am aware of uses ffmpeg. It's the building block(s). How software EXECUTES what is "under the hood" is of utmost importance. I am not sure what or how Topaz has chosen to accomplish this (deinterlacing). I do not use anything but HOS for my deinterlacing needs. With Topaz, I'd bet ffmpeg is involved. If the footage does not deinterlace "proper" with HOS, it's NOT the fault of HOS. It's probably settings or garbage footage to start with. You can put lipstick on a pig but guess what............ it's STILL a pig.

I think this has been covered but remember, you CAN NOT deinterlace progressive footage. It's easy to slip the wrong source clip onto the timeline IF you have several "flavors" to choose from.

Last, software will do exactly what it's told to do. The bad thing about that fact is, Software will do exactly what it's told to do. HOS uses open source deinterlacing. It is the best in my humble opinion.

Musicvid recommended HOS to me years ago. My only regret is not trying it sooner. It's a GAME CHANGER for so much more than JUST deinterlacing.