> Well... you can already burn authored HD to standard dvd media with a standard burner...

Yea, did you really mean HD to DVD or HD to HD-DVD? I don't see how HD to DVD is a viable solution unless all of your projects are 20 minutes or less in length. You really want HD to HD-DVD and the burners don't even exist yet so Blu-ray wins on that one. At least there are burners available.

~jr

Toshiba laptops with HD DVD burners are readily available down here. The burners for desktops arrive this month.

"Yea, did you really mean HD to DVD or HD to HD-DVD? I don't see how HD to DVD is a viable solution unless all of your projects are 20 minutes or less in length. You really want HD to HD-DVD and the burners don't even exist yet so Blu-ray wins on that one. At least there are burners available."

You don't need an HD burner. A standard burner will create HD DVD's, and I can get 54 minutes of HD (at 19000K) on a DL disk

Meanwhile BD disks are $20 each and you still can't Author in BD... so I am not so sure there is a winner here.

hd-dvd

Why can't you author a BD? Sonic seems to be selling DVDit Pro HD claiming it can author BD.

--Scott

"HD DVD"

Yeah... That's what I would say. I'm producing HD dvd's right now for the price of a Verbatim DL disk. BD's disk prices make Hi def simply non viable. I won't bother even thinking about BD until disk prices drop to abou $5 ea... that'll be a loooong while.

"Why can't you author a BD? Sonic seems to be selling DVDit Pro HD claiming it can author BD."

If that's true then it's new, because the last time I checked (which wasn't long ago), you can do BD data disks but there are no programs to Author a disk

http://www.roxio.com/enu/products/dvdit/dvdit.html

$500

Yup... you're absolutely right!

Still though... $500 for the burner, $500 for the program, and $20 per disk for BD

Versus

$40 for the program and $2 per disk for HD DVD

I'll stick with HD DVD for the moment

"$2 per disk for HD DVD" where have you found a HD-DVD disk for $2?

The fact is the HD DVD format people are concern with 1M vs. 30k players out there. That is why gluing the two different format disks together is a hot topic with the HD-DVD producers. Trying to keep Gates happy and not lose their skirts is going to be a major issue. Gates will have to commit to re-designing the 360 with the HD-DVD player build in with real "HD" cabling output to avoid the sega system patchwork look. Apple is re-adjusting there music market, so Gates must spend money there too. But when you add up all the cost of a 360 to own and yearly fees for "live"...... the PSP3 looks a lot better, plus only Sony can deliver media (music,tv, movies) directly. Plus the PSP3 media center isn't by MS, requiring monthly patches( not yet).

So what system do you choose, all of the above if you have kids. The Xbox & x360 live for Halo2 playing, PSP and PSP2 for everything else. PSP3 is the future of gaming, and general HD media viewing. And as soon as can I wrestle it from my teenagers, I plan to "play" with it a little( I have my power tools ready, all consoles fall victim to my surgical skills)!

No HD-DVD disks - it's putting HD material on a regular DL DVD disk.

Ulead has had a BD capable tool for nearly 5 months now. $80.00.
BD is actually easier to author for the masses because it doesn't require Java, which HD DVD does. iHD is the Microsoft component required for HD DVD menus. BD doesn't require that component.
>a href="http://ces.betanews.com/entry/LG_Hybrid_BlurayHD_DVD_Player_Cannot_Be_Sold_As_Is/1168407626">LG is already being sued by the DVD Consortium, because they didn't license the iHD code from Microsoft; they just built/announced a dual format player that only plays HD DVD, but doesn't allow access to menus.
HD DVD has been in dev longer than BD, by a fairly long period. BD came about as the result of Toshiba wanting a fortune for licensing the HD technology. Check out the history of the MMCD (which is the original name of what is now HD DVD).
You can't burn HD DVD discs on existing burners; that's a big misconception. HD DVD is still a blue ray technology, but different in format than Blu-ray. HD DVD and BD both use a 405nm blue laser. It's not the same as your current computer burner.

ICT is more challenging in HD DVD, but in a way, that means little, as most studios have agreed to not use ICT nor resolution limitations. HDCP has had to be modified twice for HD DVD as they jumped the gun, trying to get an earlier delivery of goods to the market. BD waited, which is why the various BD consortium members are getting hammered for delaying to market.
I have a Samsung BD player, so I'm a bit biased, but have also ordered a dual player. I have a BD burner. It's very difficult to find HD DVD burners.
BD burners have been in laptops for nearly a year now. There are several authoring programs for BD ranging from 80.00 to 50K. There are a lot of announce supports for HD DVD, but currently I'm only aware of two that actually function, and both require iHD in order to menu-ize the DVD.
Many people forget that almost all the major studios are exclusively in the BD camp. Only two majors are in the HD DVD camp, and of those two, one of them is also in the BD camp. If that much content is committed to BD, it doesn't matter much what anyone is saying; BD is here to stay. Is it more expensive up front? Absolutely. Does anyone here remember 1630's? I surely do. I surely remember the cost of the first CD authoring tools and burners too. And how difficult it used to be. Anyone remember when DVD first came to the desktop? Remember spending 600.00 for the first Pioneer DVD burners? And 10.00 for blank media? I'm sure Farss remembers, I'm sure others here do too. It'll settle out. If you're on the bleeding edge, you pay for this stuff. If you're not, it'll be cheap for you in another year. In the meantime, the bleeding edge folks are the ones that pay for the initial development of the formats. Always has been that way.
I don't know who is going to win the war, but bear in mind that it's a long-term issue, and on that score, BD wins both for the consumer and for the manufacturer. That doesn't mean it'll come out on top, but it sure gives it a leg up. Both the BD Consortium and the HD DVD alliance are literally burning money by the bushelful to win the biz. BD has a significant leg up with over 1M PS delivered, while HD DVD currently requires an external box for their gaming console, or a very expensive external player.
If I can get permission from the HD DVD camp, I'll post the PowerPoint presentation that I delivered at CES last week. It won't change any minds, but it'll hopefully remove some of the fog and BS that we're seeing in this forum and on other places on the web.

"You can't burn HD DVD discs on existing burners; that's a big misconception. "

Do people not read???

I never said I was burning on HD DVD media. I am creating HD DVD's on STANDARD DVD DL DISKS..... Let me repeat that one more time for the hearing impaired... STANDARD DVD DL DISKS.

You can (and I am) burning HD to a standard disk with a standard burner. The disks are fully authored and are similar to a regular dvd. They contain HVDVD_TS folders instead of Video_ts folders. They contain EVO files instead of VOBS and the disk is written in UDF2.5. So after the burn, they can not be read by your burner... only the tosh player. At 19000k I can get 54 minutes on a disk. For all intents and purposes, these are REAL hd dvd's.

Blu Ray does not have this capabiliyty (yet any way)

ScottW, I was curious because all the retail HD-DVD media I've seen have been very expense and close to BD disk prices which had double the storage. I believe SimonW linked article pointed out that rentals for BD vs HD-DVD, were brutal for HD-DVD.





Edited to correct that SimonW posted the article link, not ScottW.

"Ulead has had a BD capable tool for nearly 5 months now. $80.00."

It will do a data disk... NOT an authored disk..... different thing.

I have no claim in this game as i am currently waiting like many others for this all to shake out before investing in a particular format. I really have no clue who will win nor do I care who wins. I do know that the format that makes it the easiest for users to author and save their home movies in hi def, isnt too intrusive about protection, and lower costs will undoubtledly decide the market.

My only complaints are the major delay in getting all the tools required to author this stuff and also both camps claiming victory when both camps know neither side is close to winning any crown at this point. As a Sony Vegas user, it is VERY frustrating to watch all of these other companies release software to author in the different formats while we sit here waiting to see what Sony offers up with regards to DVDA or at the very least, some word or indication on the expected availability of such options.

Adobe is finishing up touches on their update to their Production Studio line(PP2.5, HD/BD Encore 2.5, etc...) and before long, Sony will fall further behind.

1. I'm quite aware of how you're doing what you're doing. Didn't say you were doing anything differently. Burning high def media to a standard DVD is not an HD DVD, and any commercial venture that attempted to suggest as much would find themselves in a lawsuit within minutes.

2. Thank you for pointing out that data discs are different than authored discs. I guess I never woulda known.

I'm a total noob at video stuff. I appreciate your help.

smart a@@ comments ae so refreshing . give it a rest and watch some ball .colts 15 ravens 6 now for the next game .

Well, I glad to hear Spot publicly stated he needed help with things like HD, HDV and other things. I have a great starting link to a website that works really hard to help people/noobs like yourself, VASST.com or something like that. A guy called Douglas Spotted Eagle and his partners work really hard to deliver news and tips about the latest goods. Tho, I hear he can be a "rough" on the keyboard in the morning without his expresso, I need myself about 3 shots to see the keyboard.

"2. Thank you for pointing out that data discs are different than authored discs. I guess I never woulda known.

I'm a total noob at video stuff. I appreciate your help."

Well... sorry if you're irritated there Spot... didn't mean to come across as arrogant... but our posts above clearly spelled out the fact that we were talking about AUTHORING programs... and obviously Ulead does not qualify. Finding BD data burn programs is easy.

Don't mean to ruffle feathers!! All I know is that I am burning and enjoying Hd dvd's at a really great price... that's all I care about.

Yes,
I remember well how expensive CD and DVD was to author initially.
I also remember how long both of those took from launch to gain market traction. Let's step back in time a bit and look at why that happened, pure speculation on my part but I don't read anyone else looking at it this way.

For quite a while we had several audio formats, R2R, vinyl, cassette and then CD. R2R was really just too expensive for the masses, the media sure wan't convenient to handle and it wasn't random access. Vinyl was cheap enough and random access, who didn't have a record player back then. Then along come the lowly audio cassette and it took off like wildfire. Just the same as R2R but cheaper and way more convenient and it held on way longer than it should have. CDA took a long time to gain traction and replace cassette. SO what was the attraction with cassette?
We could easily make our own. Drop dead simple. How many really did apart from dubbing CDs or vinyl, not many I guess but the thought that you could was very attractive. I'd suggest the uptake of CD didn't really take off until enough found it affordable to burn their own. Once we could do that there simply wasn't a reason to use cassette anymore.

I'd suggest the same goes for DVD, not that many people even today have the time, kit and skills to author a DVD but they know they could and cheaply too. It's not so much that there's a reason to buy into it, it's that there's no longer a reason NOT to buy into it.

So now lets move forward a bit. Sony releases the PSP and UMD. Looked very exciting but it just faded away. Why?

I'd suggest because we couldn't make a UMD, no I don't mean replicating 1000s of them, I mean burn 1 or 100. Think about it, a pocket sized player with pocket sized media so cheap you could give it away. Brilliant, well should have been. Why was UMD such a good idea? The disk fits in a pocket, you hand one to someone and their first thought isn't "bugger, what am I going to do with this thing that will not fit in my pocket" like they do with CDs and DVDs. I know how important this is from trying to hand out free things at trade shows. We even put quite usefull freebies in the bag and still they don't want it, cause they know they'll have to carry it. UMDs would have been a killer but we know the history of that one.

Now I don't care much over who wins this current debacle over HD content delivery but I think it matters nothing how many studios sign up for what. The 'studios' that'll decide the fate of all of them are the ones run by the likes of us, what we do has a huge multiplier effect, we talk to people, we provide them with content that THEY want. You think I'm blowing smoke, well maybe. But here's the thing, several of my clients didn't own DVD players before they met me but they soon did afterwards. All the push marketing amounted to zip but their pull wanting content and how I told them it was going to be delivered got them converted to DVD pronto.
I'd even offer an lternate view on why HD TVs are walking out of the shops down here in droves. Nah, not because of the better picture but because they're bigger AND smaller. The husband gets the bragging rights and the wife gets more space in the living room. Again there's no reason (apart from the price) not to buy one.

Now I'm a very small sardine in a very big oceon but there's a lot of sardines like me out there and the ripple effect of what we do is felt right up the food chain. It seems to me that the whole idea that people will buy something because of something else that you can sell them is nuts. IF the studios want us to buy their content in HD then the tool to play that content should be free and if you think that's insane, well look at what the mobile phone operators have done. "Hey kid, want a free mobile phone?". Sucked 'em in in their millions.

Brilliant post, Bob, and I think you're dead-on with almost all of it.
Blink, you didn't "ruffle my feathers," I just didn't feel like arguing the point. With the plugin pack, you *can* author simple DVDs in Ulead's tool, or the Power ProducerPack (Cyberlink, free w/any BD burner). I don't use the Ulead tool, we're using other tools, but have seen Steve Mullen's discussions on the Ulead option. Additionally, Roxio, Nero, and a couple others coming as shown at CES last week, will have low end authoring in the sub 99.00 bracket by April. I've seen the tools, and am beta on one of them. It's junk, but it works (no, it's not a Sony tool).
iHD and Java make the HD DVD format mostly a no-starter for me, and clearly a no-starter for manufacturers. I'd say that's a fairly big issue to overcome.
I also believe the 399.00 price hump is one that needs to be overcome as well, regarding any High Def DVD player, and that won't happen til Xmas 07. We need 250.00 high def players, so that by 08, we'll have 99.00 players, so that by 2012, they'll be practically free in anticipation of UXHD. ;-)