ok, a really dumb question from an interested party to the ongoing melee....

my programs rarely run more than 15min, occassionally 25, more often 8. all of which (i think) would produce a file size that would fit on a dvd. (ok, did i read 24min max somewhere?).

there's a lot of smoke and mirrors around - can i:

a. record hd to dvd?

b. play this dvd in a yet to be released hd/bd player

c. i'm talking tv, not on pc - which ain't a problem with .wmv (is ther any good alternative to .wmv for pc?)

once, and i mean once, the dust has settlded, THEN i'll jump. meanwhile, 4:3 now looks so user friendly i could cry.....

leslie

You can record HD content to DVD, no problem. the problem lies in the output. Currently, DVD players can't output HD signals. HD DVD players can. BD players can. Computers over networks to certain types of DVD players can.
No smoke, no mirrors, just confusion mostly due to the infighting of the two camps.
In 6 months, this entire discussion will be entirely moot. In one year, it will be forgotten. Maybe sooner.

"b. play this dvd in a yet to be released hd/bd player"

Are you talking about the LG combo palyer coming out? If you are, then it is a good question.

Home burned HD dvd's on standard dvd media DO work in the toshiba and RCA HD Players. But they DO NOT work in the xbox360 drives. Soooo.... will they work in the combo player????

Avid (pinnacle) is working with Microsoft to try and clear up the xbox 360 issue though. This was clearly stated to us by the Pinnacle Engineers in writing.

Currently, DVD players can't output HD signals..

Sorry, today is Nitpicking Day.

My Sony DVP-NS75H DVD player outputs a very beautiful 1920x1080 HD signal from its HDMI jack.

Of course that signal comes from the output of its built-in excellent scaler..., but it wouldn't take much to replace that with a decoder output fed from the DVD bitstream.

Samsung BD-P1000s players have dropped to $599.99 (TigerDirect), with refurbished units selling for $439.99 (Second Act, using code C2249).

$439.99 at least isn't that far off from $399, even if these price are primarily caused by the Samsung BD-P1200 announcement (rated "less lousy" by Gizmodo which is unfair in this case).

It still boggles the mind that to fully use this Sony-promoted standard, I have to buy a LaCie external Blu-Ray burner that comes with Panasonic Blu-Ray disc media in the box, then play the result on a Samsung Blu-Ray home theater player.

OK, to rephrase then, current non-high def DVD players cannot *decode* an HD stream on any form of media. But via network, some can pass the signal provided to them.
That is a great price for a P1000! I was sent a unit for commentary/review and really hated to send it back.

Just noticed today at Best Buy advertising LG dual player which plays HD-DVD +DVD hybrid and Bluray for $1200.00. It also upconverts standard DVD's. Does that mean that new HD-DVD discs also have the standard DVD available on them to play in old players? Some people may be profoundly happy with the upconverted old fastioned DVD. Seems to me that "flexibility" is in.
JJK

Both HD DVD and BD players will play legacy/older DVDs, and (I believe) all of the HD players upscale standard def.

"Does that mean that new HD-DVD discs also have the standard DVD available on them to play in old players?"

Yes.

They are starting to make double sided disks with HD DVD on one side and the same movie in standard dvd on the other side. This has yet to be accomplished in BD though because of the extremely thin protective layer over a BD disk. (The protective layer on a BD has been reduced in thickness because of the structure of the media)

"(The protective layer on a BD has been reduced in thickness because of the structure of the media)" tho, its true about the protective layer, the Bluray crowd has never express any serious interest in putting DVDs and Bluray together. HD-DVD crowd is trying to create a market by putting DVDs & HD-DVDs together, increasing the sales by reducing standard DVDs production. By ChrisX2007, the number of BluRay vs HD-DVD players will settle the argument. The PSP3 will buried the HD-DVD market.
To save the HD-dvd market, MS must redesign the X360 and offer a reasonable cost upgrade for older X360, plus "live" will need to drop in cost or become free, not exactly a Gates thing. HP needs to mass intro HD-DVD players at zero cost for consumers, which requires a lot of OEM players. The HP board of directors may not like the ideal of funding the MS war without seeing a profit in the near future. But without having "media content", HP has no profit centers in distr. of HD-DVD media unless the few studios are willing to share their profits. So MS will be expected to "pay" for the cost of this war. We all have seen many storage devices,ie, zip drives, come and go, many OSs come and go, so change in the market is going to happen. This battle is really a good thing, HD-DVD is dead, but the fight to save it, employs people, creates debate, create marketing jobs, and demonstrates that big Corporations(Gates and friends) can't buy the future always,(idealistically anyways).

I would say that we are both playing guessing games as to why one camp is using double sided disks and the other not... Only Sony knows for sure on that one.

As for the game machines... that's also a PURE guessing game. I will say that the PS3 did see quite a few bad reviews from fairly reputible outfits (New York Times just for example) ...and I don't think PS3 has come anywhere NEAR burying HD DVD!! In fact according to Sony... the PS3 releases have not come close to what was expected.

I don't think there is ANY kind of winner now and won't be for a LOOOONG time... but if you visit a place like AVS forum.. you will see that HD DVD traffic is constantly and consistantly twice that of the BD traffic. What that means is anybody's guess... but it is interesting.

With both camps squabbling, I have come to this conclusion, or prayer if you will. I honestly wish both camps have their either protection cracked and content distributed freely thus nullfying any security edge one has over the other or maybe even a huge comet fly into both camps and destroy all of their replication systems and anyone who had anything to do with the inital ideas/designs.

Seriously. Its freaking ridiculous from a consumer's standpoint. All consumers want is a reliable, cost efficient way to watch whatever it is they want to buy. It should have no bearing on what studios produced it, what format, etc... The beauty of DVDs is that it worked and regardless of whatever I wanted to buy, I knew it would work in my stb at home. With Joe Public getting a taste of HD and wanting more, he is faced with a choice in what to invest in. WTF? Joe should only have to invest in one format in order to enjoy his media. Not purchase a PS3 or a x360 or HD DVD or BD.

Computers are so fast these days, one has to wonder why the industry still has not embraced fully the issue of online delivery. Lower costs and consumers get what they want exactly when they want it. With Vista and its Media Center soon to be in just about every home and Windows Home Server out this summer, theres no reason to invest heavily in to the formats we have now.

Theres a reason that pirates have chosen to share their divx copies online. Ease of use and procurement. As long as there is a battle between both camps, BOTH camps will conitnue to lose. Hybrid players solve nothing. So what happens if you buy a hybrid player and the BD componets crap out? Or the HD DVD stops working? Guess what? Time to buy another player or only buy content from the studios that offer the format that still works for you.

Personally, I hope consumers wise up and tell both formats to stick it up their ass and force both camps to work together for a unified solution. until then, may both sides go broke.

I don't quite understand your post, Blink.
~We know that there are 1M Playstations out there. It's fewer than Sony thought there would be, but they also weren't counting on Wii to hit the market the way it did. Microsoft didn't expect it either.
~We know that approx 20k non-Playstation BD players have been sold, which is behind HD DVD, but then again, HD DVD was out first by a fair margin.
~We know that there are fewer than 40k HD DVD players out there.
~We know that by wide and far, the majority of content destined for consumer viewing is owned by the BD consortium.
~We know that people like yourself can burn HD DVD content to a standard DVD player, which can be played on most of the relatively few HD DVD players available. Seems to me that this would account for the traffic you're seeing on the already-heavily pro HD DVD AVS forums.
However, 1.2M players to date vs 30k players, more content, longer life, larger capacity, identical retail price...HD DVD has a serious uphill battle to contend with.
I believe, and most analysts believe, the battle will become more heated, and burn out quickly. Which will be on top? No one knows. I believe it will be BD for all of the already stated reasons. It's slower to market, but slow and steady wins the race, usually.
Additionally, this past week has shown most analysts that the Toshiba marketing team is willing to stoop pretty low to get press eyeballs. The press releases coming from that side of the fence are fast, furious, and IMO, inappropriate with regard to the adult content industry. Taking the comments of a small studio (who may have beem compensated for their anti-BD comments) and attempting to turn them into an "industry" statement is simply ridiculous.
It's no different than a camcorder manufacturer proclaiming that Sony HDV camcorders aren't "real HD" because the imager is a 960 x 1080 imager when the Z1 came out, standing on that position for nearly a year, and then releasing a camera with a 960 x 540 imager and claiming that their camera was "real HD." However, the adult press releases are something the BD consortium really can't respond to.
Obviously I like BD. I've invested in a BD player and already have 20+ BD discs, so I'm clearly biased. I also have looked quite closely at what HD DVD offers and made my decision based on that offering. All that said, I also purchased Betamax back in the day. I was wrong then, I could easily be wrong now. Back then, I wasn't on the inside of CES, Peddie, and some of the other industry info either. I'd probably have put my money on VHS if I had been.

I also purchased Betamax back in the day. I was wrong then, I could easily be wrong now.

I bought Betamax too, and got a good life out of it, with a picture that was better at the time. What was wrong about that?

I got a VHS deck too a bit later when Betamax content was getting scarce, but I sure didn't feel that this made my world collapse. Was I wrong suddenly? I didn't think so then, and I don't think so now looking back.

Well... first... I have NO idea where you are getting your "facts" from.... they sound more like opinions. I don't think ANYBODY knows how many machines (BD, HD DVD, PS3... or otherwise have been sold and are being used. I would love to see some numbers from an independant, and reliable source before you get me to swallow any of that.

Second... most of the people on the AVS forum have very little idea that you can create HD DVD's from dvd media... this I know. The people on the AVS forums are all hi def movie junkies (you know... the type with the full blown movie theaters in the basement)


And third.. What the heck do you mean "stoop so low"??? I did not realize there was a rule book on how this is played out. There are BIG dollars at risk here... I would say what ever works is fair game. Sony's hands are not exactly clean in this department either... but hey... that's the game!

In fact, the guys on the AVS forum are using this site as a guage:


http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/



The AVS forum:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/index.php?
(scroll about 1/2 way down... you will see HD DVD/BD players)

Of course the sales figures are known. They're easy to find independently, or you can subscribe to market reports from companies like Jon Peddie. It's expensive, but necessary if you're in the biz. There is no "opinion" about it; the sales figures of all units are readily available, and must be, as all of the companies selling the products are publically held. Additionally, there are simply too many points from which the sales can be measured.
You can subscribe to the private/research portions of Ma href="http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6405627.html">VideoBusiness Magazine which reports daily on industry, and weekly on sales. Again, very expensive, and very necessary if you're building market strategy.
GFK is perhaps the most expensive, but most detailed reporting.
Here is just one report from a non-industry position.
Poke around the Engadget website and you'll find a lot of info.
6 million PS devices are expected to be shipped worldwide by end of March 07. 1M units are already sold in the US alone.
BD disc sales in their first quarter after international release, eclipsed HD DVD by more than 20%.
While I do have opinions, the numbers I'm citing aren't part of those opinions. Do a little research outside of community forums. Or, you could have been at CES where the numbers were made available pretty well every day in the CES news, delivered right to your hotel room door. No mystery, no opinions, not on the numbers. By law, those numbers must be made available, and market analysts are there to sell you compiled bits of info on a daily basis, or you can do your own collating. FWIW, it's a small part of what our team here does, and as a result, we subscribe to several research reports. When all the reports line up very closely or perfectly aligned, you've either got a massive conspiracy, or figures that are pretty close to accurate. Take your pick.

Yeah... and here is one quote from one of your sample reports:

"Sony, which earlier this week said that it had shipped 1 million PS3s to North America by year-end, sold 687,300 PS3s, according to the NPD Group's numbers. So far, the PS3 is selling at a faster pace than its predecessors, Sony's Jack Tretton said in a statement."

Hardly what I would call an independant reliable source. Contrary to this is one of the graphs listed in the site above that I listed.... guess it all depends on who's "spin" you want to believe the most... Alot of people sure got sucked into ENRON's spin didn't they....like I said... nobdy knows for sure.

Another article you put forth mentions "hd dvd's final blow" Do you have any idea how many times BOTH bd and hd dvd have been dealt "final blows"?? Boy, if I had a penny for each time that was said!

Blink, you're going to believe what you want to believe. I'm the guy you said doesn't know the difference between a data disc and a DVD too, remember? ;-) So my opinion shouldn't matter at all. I'm not trying to convince you of anything, outside of saying that there is data with different evaluations than what you're posting.

The reports you can *see* from newspapers and magazines, aren't exactly the same, that's for sure. Additionally, the dating is important.
As for me, I mostly trust the data we pay for from CES, Peddie, and GFK. They're all fairly closely aligned. Those reports, you can't see, unless you pay dearly for them.
What's ironic is that you're open to believing one "spin" because it fits your wishes. The articles I linked to as well as articles I didn't link to, all are from differing viewpoints. The challenge is in reading as many of them as possible and extrapolating what's accurate and what isn't. Zeroing in on one comment that doesn't support your position and calling it proof that your position is right, doesn't a fact make. The absence of data doesn't support the opposing side. None of the reports are facts in and of themselves. Which is why research companies are valuable. They're also biased to a degree, even though they shouldn't be. GFK loves Sony, Pioneer, and Panasonic. Peddie loves Toshiba, JVC and Samsung (they're really hot on Adobe, too). Knowing these traits helps make data easier to deliberate.

At the end of the day, it matters not what you or I believe, think, or say, because we're both insignificant in the grand scheme of the industry. Do you really think I worry much about which format wins, outside of me having roughly 1300.00 invested in my choice? Not really. In the position my business is in, we win based on our decisions regarding either format. Which is why for example, we have Canon, Panasonic, and Sony camcorder training. I'm not sure why it is important to you that BD loses and HD DVD wins?

In my case, we use the data exclusively to make business decisions. Thus far, we've been either exceptionally lucky or have had good data. I'm not sure what you're doing with your information beyond enjoying the argument (and it is fun, for a while) relating to which format wins, if either of them win. It still could be that someone will come up with a more consumer-friendly format before either HD DVD or BD gets much more stability.
Not likely, but possible.

"What's ironic is that you're open to believing one "spin" because it fits your wishes."

Contrary to what you seem to believe, I have no wishes at all. I don't really care who wins this war. As I said above, what I care about is creating HD disk at a good price... today that happens to be HD DVD... but if BD drops the prices and makes it viable to burn Blu Ray then I'll by a BD player in a heartbeat. I have no loyalty AT ALL to either camp... my loyalty lies with my wallet. And as far as watching Hollywood movies are concerned, I'm no different than what seems to be the vast majority of the general population: a normal dvd in a standard player suits me just fine.



"So my opinion shouldn't matter at all. I'm not trying to convince you of anything, outside of saying that there is data with different evaluations than what you're posting."

All I am trying to say is that it works BOTH ways... there is as much to counter your info... which is why I say nobody knows for sure. Furthermore... you can rely on as much fancy paperwork as you want... but I'll bet those who spent big bucks on expensive technical predictions were a tad pissed off in the beta/vhs mess. It just goes to show you that when it comes to predicting the future... your crystal ball is about as good as mine :)


BTW:

"I'm the guy you said doesn't know the difference between a data disc and a DVD"

You are DEAD wrong on this... I never said ANYTHING of the sort!? You are taking words out of context . (see how things just kind of "spin" a little) :)