Broadcast Safe - V22 vs V17

Roger Bansemer wrote on 4/13/2025, 6:55 PM

Here's a screen shot of a clip rendered in MXF format in V22 with the "Broadcast Color" filter applied to the master bus in order to bring the levels to broadcast safe. That clip was rendered in V22 and it looks fine on the scopes before rendering. However when I take that rendered clip and place it back on the V22 timeline (with broadcast color unchecked) the levels are hot.

Now when I take that same exact rendered clip (pictured on the right side of the screen) and put it into V17 and it reads OK. So.... I'm getting two different reads on the same exact clip.

I'm in a crunch here and need to know what is going on and how to fix this. Which waveform is actually telling me the truth.
My project properties are "pixal format-legacy 8bit on both V17 and V22.
I'd sure appreciate some answers. Thanks very much.
Roger

Comments

RogerS wrote on 4/13/2025, 7:08 PM

There's no screenshot.

Check the scope settings and if they have Studio RGB levels checked or not.

Broadcast doesn't touch the levels does it? I thought it was just for color saturation. You need to convert everything to studio/video levels with levels Fx if you use 8 bit video levels.

Roger Bansemer wrote on 4/13/2025, 7:59 PM

Broadcast Colors definitely brings the levels within the 0 to 100 range. I've been doing this for over 100 PBS shows and now I'm scheduled to deliver 13 new episodes, and they are telling me that my levels are hot. However, I'm using the same template I used on my last season of show. Dennis called and tried helping me and I'd like to hear from him again but it's late now... Levels put on the master bus is not the answer as it makes everything dull. They programs were already leveled on the clip level.
I can't say PBS is wrong but I sure can't find anything different I've done on my end. It's driving me crazy.

RogerS wrote on 4/13/2025, 8:26 PM

I haven't tried it in years so appreciate that info.

It seems the issue is the color correction or other Fx pushing the levels of the already corrected media levels above 235?

Did you check the gear above the scopes to make sure they are both set the same way?

Also, who is Dennis?

Last changed by RogerS on 4/13/2025, 8:37 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

Custom PC (2022) Intel i5-13600K with UHD 770 iGPU with latest driver, MSI z690 Tomahawk motherboard, 64GB Corsair DDR5 5200 ram, NVIDIA 2080 Super (8GB) with latest studio driver, 2TB Hynix P41 SSD and 2TB Samsung 980 Pro cache drive, Windows 11 Pro 64 bit https://pcpartpicker.com/b/rZ9NnQ

ASUS Zenbook Pro 14 Intel i9-13900H with Intel graphics iGPU with latest ASUS driver, NVIDIA 4060 (8GB) with latest studio driver, 48GB system ram, Windows 11 Home, 1TB Samsung SSD.

VEGAS Pro 21.208
VEGAS Pro 22.239

Try the
VEGAS 4K "sample project" benchmark (works with VP 16+): https://forms.gle/ypyrrbUghEiaf2aC7
VEGAS Pro 20 "Ad" benchmark (works with VP 20+): https://forms.gle/eErJTR87K2bbJc4Q7

john_dennis wrote on 4/14/2025, 5:30 AM

@Roger Bansemer Please review this thread while I sleep.

Vegas Pro Levels, Last and Final # 1

I added the test files back to my drive for a while.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WSgX9k6TmOAN5stwIh1qgJnu_iZuGfSY/view?usp=sharing

john_dennis wrote on 4/14/2025, 7:02 AM

Please show a screenshot of your Video Scopes setup and you setting in the Broadcast Colors panel.

Example: (not for prime time.)

Roger Bansemer wrote on 4/14/2025, 7:43 AM

Here's another video to show what I'm up against.

RogerS wrote on 4/14/2025, 11:42 PM

I tested here with 8-bit legacy projects in 21 and 22 and the behavior seems the same. Adding a broadcast color set to extremely conservative after other edits (in this case color curves) tames superwhites back to 235.

I tried a similar MXF render to an interlaced file and them brought it back to the timeline.

The waveform post broadcast colors looks to be around 100% (in 16-235 video levels).

It's a pretty hard clamp so you might have nicer looking results with curves at the clip level instead but it does seem to work.

I tried again but with broadcast colors (lenient) on the output bus and it also clamps to 100% (this is the rendered MXF)

I assume your render template is set to limited range?

 

Last changed by RogerS on 4/14/2025, 11:44 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

Custom PC (2022) Intel i5-13600K with UHD 770 iGPU with latest driver, MSI z690 Tomahawk motherboard, 64GB Corsair DDR5 5200 ram, NVIDIA 2080 Super (8GB) with latest studio driver, 2TB Hynix P41 SSD and 2TB Samsung 980 Pro cache drive, Windows 11 Pro 64 bit https://pcpartpicker.com/b/rZ9NnQ

ASUS Zenbook Pro 14 Intel i9-13900H with Intel graphics iGPU with latest ASUS driver, NVIDIA 4060 (8GB) with latest studio driver, 48GB system ram, Windows 11 Home, 1TB Samsung SSD.

VEGAS Pro 21.208
VEGAS Pro 22.239

Try the
VEGAS 4K "sample project" benchmark (works with VP 16+): https://forms.gle/ypyrrbUghEiaf2aC7
VEGAS Pro 20 "Ad" benchmark (works with VP 20+): https://forms.gle/eErJTR87K2bbJc4Q7

john_dennis wrote on 4/15/2025, 1:13 AM

The reason I'm not fond of the Broadcast Colors fX (at least the presets) is the loss of detail in the highs and lows while a simple Color Curve can achieve the desired output levels while maintaining the detail.

I'd stop struggling with Legacy 8 bit (video levels) by switching to more modern 8 bit (full range) Pixel Format letting Vegas handle levels. It would require disabling and/or removing all the corrections in the project. In fact I have done it on many of the projects that I've revisited from Vegas 17 and earlier. The number is not 100% though.

Roger Bansemer wrote on 4/15/2025, 4:14 AM

The reason I'm not fond of the Broadcast Colors fX (at least the presets) is the loss of detail in the highs and lows while a simple Color Curve can achieve the desired output levels while maintaining the detail.

I'd stop struggling with Legacy 8 bit (video levels) by switching to more modern 8 bit (full range) Pixel Format letting Vegas handle levels. It would require disabling and/or removing all the corrections in the project. In fact I have done it on many of the projects that I've revisited from Vegas 17 and earlier. The number is not 100% though.

 

Roger Bansemer wrote on 4/15/2025, 4:19 AM

Hi John, I can't stop struggling with Legacy 8 bit because I have 13 fully rendered programs and I can't go back to each program on the original timeline with lots of tracks and start adjusting every single clip in my program to fit that setup again. It would be different if I hadn't fully adjusted every clip on my timeline with levels, curves, etc. No matter what I try I'm always getting a few stray dots above my broadcast safe levels.
The question is, what do I do now, not what should I do in the future. I appreciate you keeping up with me on this.
Roger

Roger Bansemer wrote on 4/15/2025, 4:53 AM

I tested here with 8-bit legacy projects in 21 and 22 and the behavior seems the same. Adding a broadcast color set to extremely conservative after other edits (in this case color curves) tames superwhites back to 235.

I tried a similar MXF render to an interlaced file and them brought it back to the timeline.

The waveform post broadcast colors looks to be around 100% (in 16-235 video levels).

It's a pretty hard clamp so you might have nicer looking results with curves at the clip level instead but it does seem to work.

I tried again but with broadcast colors (lenient) on the output bus and it also clamps to 100% (this is the rendered MXF)

I assume your render template is set to limited range?

 

Hi Roger, Thanks for your time in helping.
1.My render template is like yours pictures.
2. No matter what I try (and I've spent hours and hours in every conceivable setting) I get a few "stray dots" appearing above my 100 limit. For me it simply doesn't clap down totally to the 100 range.
3. Here's another strange thing but not my major concern now. When I add a new track Vegas adds a "sharpen" filter to the chain. Here's a short video in what I mean.

4. Here's another video clearly showing what my situation is with bringing levels down to 100. No matter what I do I'm getting these few stray levels above 100.

john_dennis wrote on 4/15/2025, 7:08 AM

@Roger Bansemer

To get rid of the unwanted Sharpen fX when adding a new video track.

Right Click on the video track header

Select Set Default Track Properties

Tick the box Restore original defaults.

Roger Bansemer wrote on 4/15/2025, 7:16 AM

@Roger Bansemer

To get rid of the unwanted Sharpen fX when adding a new video track.

Right Click on the video track header

Select Set Default Track Properties

Tick the box Restore original defaults.

Good one. Thanks John for that.
Roger

 

RogerS wrote on 4/15/2025, 7:16 AM

Thanks for the video- what if if you use the extremely strict preset vs the lenient one and then render it?

Roger Bansemer wrote on 4/15/2025, 7:19 AM

Tried them all, every one... same result.

RogerS wrote on 4/15/2025, 7:21 AM

I don't know then.

Are you sure you don't want to try an 8-bit full workflow like John suggested? Everything will be edited in full range so you can see exactly what it will look like when rendered and VEGAS maps the levels back to limited range upon render.

john_dennis wrote on 4/15/2025, 8:09 AM

SWAG

The random noise above and below the limit is likely a render template limitation. MagicYUV and Pro Res have less of that.

/SWAG

Tourist Information

Here is an actual Over-the-Air ATSC stream from my local PBS station.

john_dennis wrote on 4/15/2025, 8:36 AM

@Roger Bansemer Have you considered using the Broadcast Colors sliders to pull the random values within range?

john_dennis wrote on 4/15/2025, 8:59 AM

Try these settings:

Disclaimer

All advice from The Shade-Tree Editor comes with a Double Your Money Back Warranty.

Roger Bansemer wrote on 4/15/2025, 9:34 AM

Try these settings:

Disclaimer

All advice from The Shade-Tree Editor comes with a Double Your Money Back Warranty.

I gave it a try with your settings. Nothing, I mean nothing... seems to bring it down to absolute 100.
I'm really hoping that the technicians that are looking at my programs are wrong and I really think may be but in the meantime I'm trying my best to give them what they want. I've put some our shows in Vegas that were accepted in the past and they look the same as what I'm dealing with now. So, that tells me that they are looking at them differently since they accepted them in the past or they have a new person who doesn't realize what they are receiving from me is OK.

Roger Bansemer wrote on 4/15/2025, 9:46 AM

I've put a very short clip on my FTP site if anyone cares to fuss with it. It was rendered with the Broadcast Colors checked but as you can see there are a few faint areas still showing above the 100 mark.
https://www.bansemer.com/pickup/

RogerS wrote on 4/15/2025, 9:58 AM

With the extremely conservative setting and a max of under 100 there's very little above the 100 line (probably noise?). Is that what they're objecting to?

Roger Bansemer wrote on 4/15/2025, 10:51 AM

Yup! You see, I'm just the little guy producer so I'm reluctant to go in and tell them they're looking at it has been OK in the past and should be OK now. At some point, I'll have to do that I think but I don't want to make a fool of myself either (even though I've produced 157 shows) as I'm left in the dust when it comes to talking technical stuff.
You mentioned "noise" on the clip. Is this something I could tell them and why that's OK?

RogerS wrote on 4/15/2025, 11:03 AM

I think you can say that all substantive image data is below 100% with only luma noise above it as far as you can tell. Could they review it again? You can push everything down further but it might affect how the highlights look.