Bug from 10, 11 and 12 that should be fixed for 13

Laurence wrote on 4/4/2014, 4:14 PM
There is a simple bug that has been carried over the past few versions of Vegas that really drives me mad. That is that when you render XDcam .mp4 with the markers option checked, there are no markers in the final render. This drives me nuts because what I would love to do is use XDcam mp4 as my intermediate in large files composed of many separate clips with markers separating where the clip divisions are. I want to do this because XDcam mp4 looks really, really good, is efficient size wise, handles like a dream in Vegas, and can be written without audio for b-roll type footage. This bug has kept me from doing this for the past few generations.

Anyway, I thought that now might be a good time to bring this up again since V13's release seems imminent. It would likely be an easy fix and could add another new feature/improvement to the V13 readme.

Comments

Laurence wrote on 4/4/2014, 4:16 PM
The reason I want to do large clips with markers is also because with long GOP video is that Vegas gets really sluggish with lots of small individual clips. It is also far more stable with the larger clips. This is a really big deal on long form documentary projects which I sometimes do.

Right now I am using mxf, but that doesn't have an MOS option and if I use MXF to feed Handbrake, I lose one of the stereo audio channels. XDcam .mp4 also lets me do mono audio renders which are often more efficient use of space for intermediates.
OldSmoke wrote on 4/4/2014, 4:54 PM
@Laurence

I doubt it is a bug. There is nothing mentioned in the help file that this can be done. According to the help file it only works for MPEG-2 renders.

_____________________________________________________
Extract from the help file:

Inserting markers
From the Insert menu, choose Marker to add a marker at the cursor position. Markers can be used to indicate points of interest in projects or to make notes in the project.

If you choose to save markers in your rendered MPEG-2 file, DVD Architect™ Pro will read those markers as chapter markers. Ensure the Render I-frames at markers check box is selected before rendering (in the Render As dialog, choose MainConcept MPEG-2 from the Template drop-down list, and then click the Custom button. In the Custom Template dialog, select the Video tab and select the Render I-frames at markers check box).

Each marker (up to 99) is assigned a number. Pressing this number on the keyboard moves the cursor to the corresponding marker.
_____________________________________________________

Proud owner of Sony Vegas Pro 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 & 13 and now Magix VP15&16.

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willqen wrote on 4/4/2014, 5:20 PM
Ya , I appreciate what you are saying OldSmoke, but isn't what the OP is talking about an option when rendering?

Specifically the "checkbox" to save & insert markers in the rendered file?

And doesn't that option exist for all rendered files?

I don't recall if that option is available for all types of rendered files or just the GOP variety as my workflow/experience is too limited to confirm this ...

Will
OldSmoke wrote on 4/4/2014, 5:24 PM
the way I see it is only available for MPEG-2 formats. The MFX files that Vegas creates seem to be using the MPEG-2 encoder and format which is why it works. That is also just a guess but it doesn't work with MC AVC either.
You can however load the XDCAM file into the trimmer, place your markers, save the markers and they will be in the XDCAM file.

Proud owner of Sony Vegas Pro 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 & 13 and now Magix VP15&16.

System Spec.:
Motherboard: ASUS X299 Prime-A

Ram: G.Skill 4x8GB DDR4 2666 XMP

CPU: i7-9800x @ 4.6GHz (custom water cooling system)
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Laurence wrote on 4/4/2014, 5:30 PM
The checkbox puts markers in every type of render except for XDcam .mp4. I tested this again before making this post. This behavior has been confirmed by others in the past. I'm just bringing it up again now in hopes that it doesn't get passed on to yet another major Vegas revision.

Maybe one of the V13 beta testers could try this and report back to Sony if the problem is still there. This one really bugs be because XDcam .mp4 outside of this is my favorite working format. It looks great, flies on the timeline, renders quickly, smart-renders, can work with stereo, mono or no audio, and is very compact.

If it doesn't get fixed for V13, I'll be back next year with it when V14 is about to be released.
OldSmoke wrote on 4/4/2014, 5:47 PM
I tried it with MC AVC and XAVC and both don't put markes in it.

Proud owner of Sony Vegas Pro 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 & 13 and now Magix VP15&16.

System Spec.:
Motherboard: ASUS X299 Prime-A

Ram: G.Skill 4x8GB DDR4 2666 XMP

CPU: i7-9800x @ 4.6GHz (custom water cooling system)
GPU: 1x AMD Vega Pro Frontier Edition (water cooled)
Hard drives: System Samsung 970Pro NVME, AV-Projects 1TB (4x Intel P7600 512GB VROC), 4x 2.5" Hotswap bays, 1x 3.5" Hotswap Bay, 1x LG BluRay Burner

PSU: Corsair 1200W
Monitor: 2x Dell Ultrasharp U2713HM (2560x1440)

Laurence wrote on 4/4/2014, 5:53 PM
>the way I see it is only available for MPEG-2 formats. The MFX files that Vegas creates seem to be using the MPEG-2 encoder and format which is why it works.

XDcam .mp4 is the same MPEG-2 video compression as XDcam .mxf (given that you are using the same dimensions and bitrates. In fact, I have smart-rendered between both of them.
videoITguy wrote on 4/4/2014, 5:53 PM
While I appreciate the quest of OP Laurence, I am not sure this would ever happen. For one thing, I hate "MP4" because as a desigination in the encoder list of SCS Vegas - it stands for a container - a container for Mpeg2 codec with a hidden template that produces the efficiences that Laurence quickly praises.

There are many flavors of MP4 and perhaps some would give technical rise to a marker inclusion - but not this one from what I can tell.
OldSmoke wrote on 4/4/2014, 6:03 PM
When you look at the rendered file for MXF and XDCAM you will find a different format which might the reason why one can allow for it and the other doesn't although both are written using the same codec.

I just tried MOV and that worked too. There seems to be a number of codecs and format which work/allow markes and some don't.

Proud owner of Sony Vegas Pro 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 & 13 and now Magix VP15&16.

System Spec.:
Motherboard: ASUS X299 Prime-A

Ram: G.Skill 4x8GB DDR4 2666 XMP

CPU: i7-9800x @ 4.6GHz (custom water cooling system)
GPU: 1x AMD Vega Pro Frontier Edition (water cooled)
Hard drives: System Samsung 970Pro NVME, AV-Projects 1TB (4x Intel P7600 512GB VROC), 4x 2.5" Hotswap bays, 1x 3.5" Hotswap Bay, 1x LG BluRay Burner

PSU: Corsair 1200W
Monitor: 2x Dell Ultrasharp U2713HM (2560x1440)

set wrote on 4/4/2014, 6:18 PM
Add more info:
This marker problem is also happening when you are rendering to Blu-ray AVC via SonyAVC.
If you open in DVD Architect, the markers for chapters use is gone.

I only able to do it with little turnaround, since I still authoring both BD and DVDs, I create DVD first, then save as, and replace video tracks all to BD avc.
VidMus wrote on 4/4/2014, 6:26 PM
" It is also far more stable with the larger clips."

I only use large clips of approx. an hour or more. A possible reason why I get stability?

I am not sure if this will help but you could create regions between each marker and then use the script to render regions. I know that will not give you markers in one large clip but at least you will have smaller clips that are handled much better in Vegas. The better handling may help make Vegas a lot more stable.

Might be worth a try.

john_dennis wrote on 4/4/2014, 6:31 PM
Try this Set,

Render the Sony AVC Blu-ray video.

Open in DVD Architect and let it do it's magic (it will characterize the file as "Unknown" on the first pass).

Close the DVDA project without saving

Create a new DVD Architect project

Open the same Sony AVC Blu-ray video

The markers should be there

I do this all the time and, while tedious, the markers show up on the second entry into DVD Architect after DVD Architect churns and churns all day identifying the characteristics of the video file.

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videoITguy wrote on 4/4/2014, 6:37 PM
john_dennis - there is a process going on ( I call it a handshake) when an external marker file is passed from VegasPro to the internals of DVDArchPro project when a given video file begins importing. AFAIK this transparent process happens all the time - but your observation and workaround with Sony encoded AVC in particular is interesting. Probably indicates the handshake is stumbling in some way.
This is also why I aways goto DVDAPro once a video media asset is imported and resave the marker file for lock-in to that .dar project.
PeterDuke wrote on 4/4/2014, 6:47 PM
Markers are stored in the .sfl sidecar files that accompany the rendered video and audio files (unless you disable their creation). DVDA needs one of them under certain circumstance but I am not sure exactly when.
set wrote on 4/4/2014, 6:58 PM

Weird, just learn this... move this BD AVC marker issue to new topic:
https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/blu-ray-avc-markers-not-loaded-in-dvda--97054/
*link changed for the new Magix Vegas forum

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NormanPCN wrote on 4/4/2014, 8:44 PM
I just tried the following.

Opened an existing project.
Added a marker.
Render As to XDCAM EX. This is mpeg-2 video and PCM audio in an MP4 file.
I checked the option to save markers.
An SFL sidecar file was saved with the MP4.

Closed the project.
Import media. select the just rendered file.
Place media on timeline.
The marker *IS* shown in the media on the timeline.

Close the project.
>I deleted the SFL file for the render.
Import media. select the just rendered file.
Place media on timeline.
The marker *IS* shown in the media on the timeline.

Laurence wrote on 4/4/2014, 9:00 PM
That is so strange! The last time I reported this, it was confirmed by others who tried it. I just tried it again today, both with and without audio. No embedded markers sidecar either way. Went back to XDcam .mxf and the markers were there again. Can someone else try this. Maybe I'm doing something else wrong (though I can't imagine what).
john_dennis wrote on 4/4/2014, 9:33 PM
I got the sidecar files with XDCAM-EX.MP4 render.

No markers in Vegas Pro 12-770 or DVD Architect 6-237, though.

Have you tried copying the markers from the source project that you rendered XDCAM-EX.MP4 from using View / Edit Details / Markers to the new project?

My main system:
Motherboard: Asus X99-AII
CPU: Intel i7-6850K
GPU: Sapphire Radeon RX480-8GB
RAM: Corsair Dominator (4 x 4 GB) DDR4 2400
Disk O/S & Programs: Intel SSD 750 (400 GB)
Disk Active Projects: WD BLACK SN750 NVMe 1TB Internal PCI Express 3.0 x4 Solid State Drive
Disk Other: WD Ultrastar/Hitachi Hard Drives: WDBBUR0080BNC-WRSN, HGST HUH728080ALE600, 724040ALE640, HDS3020BLA642
Case: LIAN LI PC-90 Black Aluminum ATX Full Tower Case
CPU cooling: Corsair Hydro series H115i
Power supply: SeaSonic SS-750KM3 750W 80 PLUS GOLD Certified Full Modular Active PFC Power Supply
Drive Bay: Kingwin KF-256-BK 2.5" and 3.5" Trayless Hot Swap Rack with USB 3
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Primary Monitor: Asus ProArt PA248q (24" 1920 x 1200)
O/S: Windows 10 Pro 190943
Camera: Sony RX10 Model IV

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NormanPCN wrote on 4/4/2014, 9:45 PM
This is what I got after importing the rendered XDCAM EX file back into Vegas. This screen is after I deleted the SFL but it was the same when the SFL file was there. VP12-b770
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/51868591/BlueSkies.jpg
Laurence wrote on 4/4/2014, 11:06 PM
I just did a test XDcam mp4 render with a single named marker and it was in the embedded render just fine. However, the render I attempted earlier today to the same XDcam mp4 format with 37 markers showed no embedded markers in the final render. All 37 showed up in a an XDcam .mxf render from the same timeline though. When I am not in the middle of something I will test this further.
Laurence wrote on 4/4/2014, 11:25 PM
OK, I've done this a couple of times now. If I name a marker and render to XDcam mp4, the named embed marker will show up perfectly. If I delete the name and render it again, there is no embedded marker. With XDcam .mxf I don't need to name the marker in order for it to show up embedded in the rendered file. That's easy enough to work around. Still should be fixed though.
NormanPCN wrote on 4/4/2014, 11:45 PM
I created 30'ish unnamed markers and they did not get saved via the workflow I listed previously.
I then had Vegasaur create a series of named markers and they did save.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/51868591/BlueSkies2.jpg

Maybe it has to do with unnamed versus named markers. The markers are clearly in the MP4 file in additional to the SFL, but maybe the MP4 format does not support unnamed markers. The SFL being a Vegas file can support whatever Vegas wants. Maybe when a container supports markers Vegas never looks at the SFL file and the container may have marker limitations.
Laurence wrote on 4/4/2014, 11:49 PM
>Maybe it has to do with unnamed versus named markers.

Yes, I am quite sure about it now. I am doing a render right now with no audio and thirty seven markers, with only the first marker named. It will be a several hour render, but I expect it to work. Will post on this tomorrow.

This might also might have something to do with the markers in DVDA thread. Maybe naming the markers might make them show up in DVDA.

Thank you so much for your help in this. As I said before, this has been bothering me through the past few generations of Vegas.
NormanPCN wrote on 4/5/2014, 12:54 AM
If there are ANY unnamed markers it does not seem to save markers. It probably should save named markers at least.

I looked inside the SFL file associated with my XDCAM EX renders. There are no markers in that file. It simply points to the MP4 file.