[bug] Help me out 1#2 - very slow performance VST plugins (tearing)

Peterson wrote on 5/9/2023, 12:36 PM

Hi everybody,

Please, help me out by confirming that my findings in Vegas 20 / build 403 are correct and not "only me".

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The issue is that Vegas 20 / build 403 has (at my 12th gen i9 machine) a very slow performance when you use "certain" VST2 or VST3 plugins.

E.g. when you change an EQ value (by moving a slider inside the plugin) the system becomes very slow.

I think this is caused by the effect that Vegas "records" hundreds of useless steps when you change a parameter from e.g. 1dB to 2dB (or some other parameter change).
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In the recordings below you can see what I mean;

The newest build show very slow mouse movement when you drag a slider or knob or EQ-setting.

Where the previous build is fluid (like normal mouse movement) when you do the exact same.

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To make things easier to compare I narrow the issue to one single plugin from Melda - MEqualizer

https://www.meldaproduction.com/MEqualizer

Let's say you active band nr. 3 and drag it around in the plugin screen, just to "place" it somewhere.

In 403 this is not real time, you have to "fight" with your mouse to get the dot on the right place (and you mis that spot, because the GUI freezes).

In 370 it is okay, it just works as intended.

Those issues are not strictly for Melda, it affects other plugins as wel.

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To make things easier, I did upload the free version of this particular plugin;

https://we.tl/t-gqnP44CVJO

It's just a simple VST2 (VST3 is around, but I don't use it because of my workflow) of about 166KB in size.

When you download it, place it here;

C:\Program Files\Steinberg\VstPlugins\MEqualizer.dll

Than try it out on your timeline (using Vegas 20 / build 403) and check out of it works fluid (when you change a knob, drag a band from left / right and | or adjust the handles around it to set the "q".

In my case : this works extreme slow, because Vegas is "recording" every single millisecond change you make, resulting in unacceptable performance.

Comments

Peterson wrote on 5/9/2023, 12:50 PM

I hope this works, because the video-uploader acts weird.

It show Vegas 20 / build 370 with the plugin mention above.

As you can see (I hope) dragging some points and chancing some parameters is superfluid.

In Vegas 20 / build 403 (see animated GIF in first post) it is very sluggish when you try to do the exact same.

Peterson wrote on 5/9/2023, 1:14 PM

This show the exact same plugin in RX10 editor / PRO.

It is as fluid as in Vegas 20 / build 360.

But in Vegas 20 / build 403 it is extreme sluggish when you move points / knobs and parameters like in the video above.

And in Sound Forge Pro 16 also smooth.

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Also in freeware Audacity it is smooth as hell.

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But in Vegas 20 / build 403 (not build 370) it is unusable slow and sluggish.

Peterson wrote on 5/9/2023, 2:25 PM

See the reason (I think) of the slow performance in this video.

It is Vegas 20 / build 370.

When you change a simple parameter, Vegas "fetches" hundreds of undo-states.

I have contacted the dev of this (and other) plugins and they clearly state that the plugin itself is not firing those states to the "parent" (Vegas), but the parent (Vegas) is fetching it from the client / child (plugin).

In stead of one undo, Vegas memory overflows with hundreds.

In build 403 this becomes so slow, that changing a parameter in a plugin is almost not possible in realtime.

As a side effect, undoing one of those complete useless undo's will result in freezes, crashes, etc...

In build 370 you can bypass this bug by "don't record undo for FX" in the options, but in build 403 it still saves those (invisible for view) even when changed off.

pierre-k wrote on 5/10/2023, 4:49 AM

I confirm. There is a tearing problem even with stopped playback.

The problem is with all third party plugins

Peterson wrote on 5/10/2023, 5:21 AM

I confirm. There is a tearing problem even with stopped playback.

The problem is with all third party plugins

 

Okay, so it not just me.

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But how on earth is this possible?

Vegas is now completely unusable when you use any 3rd party plugin (even the plugins that are bundled with Vegas itself).

I mainly use the commercial Melda suite which costs more than $ 2.500,- and is superfluid even in freeware like Audacity.

In Vegas 20 / 370 it was 'okayish', but in 403 it's unworkable.

The "tearing" (a new term for me) is so extreme that I can not even finetune a parameter.

If I want to slide or drag it to 5.25 (for example) it bounces from 4 to 6, back to 3, new to 7 and freezes at 8.

It is simply not possible to finetune your settings.

You are really "fighting" or "struggling" with your mouse to get the pointer moving (it is more bad than in the recordings, you have to experience yourself).

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Only the RX plugins are looking / working "okay" now, but the release notes said the "fixed some minor and rare bugs for RX" (read : it didn't work at al in 370).

So maybe the "fixed" something for RX, which causes all other plugins to totally mallfunction?

Once again, it has to do something with those totally unusable undo-states, that freezes and crashes Vegas and causing an internal refresh loop (memory overflow).

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I tried to create a ticket for this, but that is not possible.

It was okay in 370, very bad in 403 - where can I / we report this extreme (new) faillure?

Peterson wrote on 5/10/2023, 5:52 AM

More details about the undo bug - https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/bug-vegas-records-extreme-amounts-for-undo-s-causes-lag-and-crash--140933/

pierre-k wrote on 5/10/2023, 7:08 AM

I first discovered this problem on a quad-core xenon in the first vp20 version and the subsequent Vp20 update. Then I upgraded the pc to 12 core intel and 64gb memory. The problem has not occurred since then. I thought Vegas 20 had higher CPU requirements. The problem appeared again now in version 403.

Peterson wrote on 5/10/2023, 7:12 AM

I first discovered this problem on a quad-core xenon in the first vp20 version and the subsequent Vp20 update. Then I upgraded the pc to 12 core intel and 64gb memory. The problem has not occurred since then. I thought Vegas 20 had higher CPU requirements. The problem appeared again now in version 403.

Those are exactly my findings as well.

I have a 12th generation i9 with 128GB ram and even than it freezes.

In short;

  1. Vegas 20 / build 370 - tearing in 3rd party plugins (slow mouse movement) and tons of "undo" in memory.

    You could workaround this by bypassing "save undo's for 3rd party FX".
     
  2. Vegas 20 / build 403 - tearing has become extreme, almost unworkable now.

    The workaround is now doing nothing (it doesn't show the undo's in the undo-stack, but it keeps "fetching / recording" them.
Petersson wrote on 5/15/2023, 9:56 AM

I asked the mods how to report this bugs, since no one really answers (from Vegas / Magix / the dev-team).

Best way to make this bug show up it so create a ticket and enter that ticket number here, the mods said.

So here it is, the ticket attached to this bug - 2023051517002441

Once I have an answer to this ticket, I will also make it visible in this thread.

Petersson wrote on 5/15/2023, 10:42 AM

EDIT

Hmmm... support from Magix / Vegas is very difficult to understand.

I created a tickets because VST is so bad performing (tearing) that is is now impossible to edit (build 403).

I got an automatic reply with this "solution" to my VST 2 / 3 issue;

"Apply FTP Settings to the New Version"

This has nothing to do with audio-fx, it is something about the Vegas Hub for social media which I don't even use.

Than I have to click "no" for this solution, so Magix knows this is not the solution.

But there is none "no button" visible in the mail... or a hyperlink.

So you have to follow this "solution", than click "no" and then the "real" ticket is send to Magix.

When I clicked "no", I received a message by mail from Magix : "we are happy your problem is solved, please answer our customer survey".

Well, I clicked "no", the problem still exists and that survey is nonsense...

Let's wait and see what's next :-)

fr0sty wrote on 5/16/2023, 5:18 PM

I'm not sure how much I'm allowed to say, but the VEGAS team has grown recently... and you can trust that part of that growth is focused on improving exactly this sort of issue. I wish I could tell you more, but I'll have to leave that to the development team and their management to disclose. I can say I haven't been this excited about VEGAS ever. Some vital changes I've been suggesting for VEGAS, and for Magix as a whole, for several years have finally happened. I can say for sure the team has been notified of these issues. Sorry for your less-than-satisfactory customer service experience, but hang in there a bit, you can trust that they're on it.

Last changed by fr0sty on 5/16/2023, 5:23 PM, changed a total of 4 times.

Systems:

Desktop

AMD Ryzen 7 1800x 8 core 16 thread at stock speed

64GB 3000mhz DDR4

Geforce RTX 3090

Windows 10

Laptop:

ASUS Zenbook Pro Duo 32GB (9980HK CPU, RTX 2060 GPU, dual 4K touch screens, main one OLED HDR)

Petersson wrote on 5/17/2023, 6:39 AM

@fr0sty Thanks for the "inside" information.

Video is important, but without (good) audio most of the time it's less effective.

So... audio is important for an editor / DAW like Vegas as well, indeed 👍 😊

LanceMGY wrote on 6/13/2023, 5:07 PM

I'm not sure how much I'm allowed to say, but the VEGAS team has grown recently... and you can trust that part of that growth is focused on improving exactly this sort of issue. I wish I could tell you more, but I'll have to leave that to the development team and their management to disclose. I can say I haven't been this excited about VEGAS ever. Some vital changes I've been suggesting for VEGAS, and for Magix as a whole, for several years have finally happened. I can say for sure the team has been notified of these issues. Sorry for your less-than-satisfactory customer service experience, but hang in there a bit, you can trust that they're on it.

Surprising news yet I won't hold my breath. Sad to see these audio plug-in issues are still an issue, after all these years and countless bug reports only to get shallow promises in return that the issues finally may be fixed. As of now it still seems audio plug-ins in Vegas, even the native included fx, still don't work as they should. I had a reply from Magix support probably 4 years ago or more that they were taking my report about the buggy audio fx 'very seriously', yet according to posts in this forum, nothing has been done really, and if anything it's gotten worse.

I'm still using Vegas 10 32bit on an older Windows 10 machine, because it's the ONLY version of Vegas that vst plug-ins work correctly. Not a great solution due to old plug-in versions and RAM limitations, etc. due to 32bit, but I'd rather deal with that than the glitchy unusable plug-ins in any newer version of Vegas.

Guess I'll 'hang in there a bit' as well, will keep checking back with this forum to see if the day finally comes that audio plug-ins work correctly in Vegas (and preferably with the ability to have more than just one window open at a time!). Vegas was always great for audio editing as well as video, was better with audio than some DAWs (minus the MIDI/instrument support of course). We'll see.

Petersson wrote on 6/19/2023, 12:37 PM

@pierre-k / @fr0sty / @LanceMGY

Update for build 411

The tearing bug appeared in build 401 and is still present in build 411.

See my bug report and screen recording for 411 here (same bug, new sh*t);

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/bug-vst-becomes-slow-if-attached-to-envelope-vegas-20-401-411--141369/

RogerS wrote on 6/19/2023, 8:47 PM

So reading between the lines the numerous other VST bugs like undo buffer are resolved? Haven't had a chance to test it yet myself.

Custom PC (2022) Intel i5-13600K with UHD 770 iGPU with latest driver, MSI z690 Tomahawk motherboard, 64GB Corsair DDR5 5200 ram, NVIDIA 2080 Super (8GB) with latest studio driver, 2TB Hynix P41 SSD, Windows 11 Pro 64 bit

Dell XPS 15 laptop (2017) 32GB ram, NVIDIA 1050 (4GB) with latest studio driver, Intel i7-7700HQ with Intel 630 iGPU (latest available driver), dual internal SSD (1TB; 1TB), Windows 10 64 bit

VEGAS Pro 19.651
VEGAS Pro 20.411
VEGAS Pro 21.208

Try the
VEGAS 4K "sample project" benchmark: https://forms.gle/ypyrrbUghEiaf2aC7
VEGAS Pro 20 "Ad" benchmark: https://forms.gle/eErJTR87K2bbJc4Q7

LanceMGY wrote on 7/23/2023, 8:31 PM

Sounds like any 3rd party VST audio plugins still don't work, after all these years and promises that this would be fixed. I guess I have to stick with my old Windows 10 machine with Vegas 10e 32bit, it's the ONLY Vegas version that works flawlessly (correctly) with any 3rd party plug-in. Unfortunately it's 32bit and very limited of course, memory limits, old plug-ins can only be used, etc.

Vegas would be awesome and gain more attention in the DAW world if this issue was resolved, plus the ability to have more than one single plug-in window open at a time. Yet this audio plug-in issue just seems to get worse, never better or even stay the same. 😔

RogerS wrote on 7/23/2023, 8:58 PM

I wouldn't say that- try build 411 which has audio fixes from 403. iZotope 64-bit VST2s seem better (can't comment on others as I haven't tested them).

Custom PC (2022) Intel i5-13600K with UHD 770 iGPU with latest driver, MSI z690 Tomahawk motherboard, 64GB Corsair DDR5 5200 ram, NVIDIA 2080 Super (8GB) with latest studio driver, 2TB Hynix P41 SSD, Windows 11 Pro 64 bit

Dell XPS 15 laptop (2017) 32GB ram, NVIDIA 1050 (4GB) with latest studio driver, Intel i7-7700HQ with Intel 630 iGPU (latest available driver), dual internal SSD (1TB; 1TB), Windows 10 64 bit

VEGAS Pro 19.651
VEGAS Pro 20.411
VEGAS Pro 21.208

Try the
VEGAS 4K "sample project" benchmark: https://forms.gle/ypyrrbUghEiaf2aC7
VEGAS Pro 20 "Ad" benchmark: https://forms.gle/eErJTR87K2bbJc4Q7

fr0sty wrote on 7/23/2023, 9:08 PM

Further improvements can be expected moving forward, which you'll likely be hearing about in the very near future.

Systems:

Desktop

AMD Ryzen 7 1800x 8 core 16 thread at stock speed

64GB 3000mhz DDR4

Geforce RTX 3090

Windows 10

Laptop:

ASUS Zenbook Pro Duo 32GB (9980HK CPU, RTX 2060 GPU, dual 4K touch screens, main one OLED HDR)