[bug] VST becomes slow if attached to envelope (Vegas 20 / 401 - 411)

Petersson wrote on 6/19/2023, 11:42 AM

See movie from build 411 above with slow tearing and description below.

In Vegas 20 build 403 (and still in 411) the GUI of a VST plugin becomes sluggish (tearing) when you visually change some parameters.

In Vegas 20 build 370 (and builds before) this was not the case, but since 403 it is.

  1. Place some audio on a track
  2. Setup a VST plugin (I did it with Melda MEqualizer)
  3. Fiddle around with a band setting
  4. Everything is smooth (in both build 370, 403 and 411)
  5. Now attach an envelope (automation) to that band setting
  6. Fiddle again
  7. In build 401 and 411 the GUI of the plugin becomes very sluggish (tearing), your mouse is not real time, the movement has hick-ups
  8. Remove the envelope (automation)
  9. Fiddle around
  10. It is smooth again

Happens when undo (for VST plugins) is enabled / disabled, with or without GPU acceleration, etc...

Maybe the movie is not 100% clear, but the bug acts like you are losing framerate when moving the mouse inside the GUI of a plugin.

Also it is impossible to finetune a setting, because the mouse hick ups, stutters, is missing pixels when moving, etc...

Belove the movie in build 370 - here the GUI is always smooth, also when attached to an envelope.

Comments

Petersson wrote on 6/20/2023, 7:11 AM

It works correctly for me in VP 20 b411. Smoothly.

I don't have the same plugin as you, but I had a lot of problems with Waves before. Not now. Maybe you installed the new version on top of the original version. If so, first try completely uninstalling Vegas and reinstalling b411 Has anything changed?

 

Thanks for testing.

Some plugins work, some don't.

In build 370 everything worked 100% smooth, in both build 401 and 411 some plugins don't.

So they changed something in between build 370 en 401 causing plugins to freeze and tear.

I have tested in these environments;

  1. Build 370
  2. Build 401
  3. Build 411
  4. Sound Forge Pro (13 / 16)
  5. RX Audio Editor Pro (9 / 10)
  6. Reaper
  7. Studio One
  8. Audacity

Those in bold have issues, the others don't (where only italic programs are (also) capable of editing with envelopes).

I am done with testing, debugging, compiling and crashing; I just want to work.

Even a freeware tool like Audacity is more fluid than a payed "pro" program like Vegas.

Build 370 is okayish, but I have to reset some system-shizzle every time I startup Vegas (which is a lot, cause it also still crashes a lot).

I have once again reported it to the devs, with details and captures, but no response yet.

I don't blame them personally, I do blame Vegas / Magix as a company for creating this buggy shit.

pierre-k wrote on 6/20/2023, 7:12 AM

I confirm the problem.
Some are smooth and some are choppy.
The "Relase" slider and the blue Band Gain are tearing. Yellow Band is ok.

During longer testing, it is different every time.
It depends on how much FX automation you combine.
What was not torn before is now torn.

Petersson wrote on 6/20/2023, 8:11 AM

I confirm the problem.
Some are smooth and some are choppy.
The "Relase" slider and the blue Band Gain are tearing. Yellow Band is ok.

During longer testing, it is different every time.
It depends on how much FX automation you combine.
What was not torn before is now torn.

Yeah, I can confirm your exact findings.

Since build 401 it is not only "some plugins" that freeze / crash / tear / have hick-ups when moving the mouse, but also "some parts" of those "some plugins".

In my equalizer and compressor some bands act fine, some are not (and they are all connected to envelope events).

It's really crap since build 401 - before that build it was okay.

So it depends, but it is also happening with extreme simple projects, like one single .wav file and one single adjustment band.

I even have a test-setup with the three most annoying audio-related bugs that appear since build 401.

Within 5 seconds I can see if a new build does solve the issues, or not. It's like a flight-check you do before operating.

Build 401 and build 411 did fail all tests.

I created tickets for this months ago, they replied it would be fixed in the next build - and if today it is still the same.

For me this is unworkable, because the only thing I do in Vegas is adjusting bands / compression / sliders / etc... for my audio tracks.

The problem is not only cosmetic : it causes a severe bug that don't allow you to finetune the settings, and will ruin your audio-output.

Petersson wrote on 6/22/2023, 2:54 PM

UPDATE 1 - ticket #2023062217003086

No updates at all, even not a automatic reply from the supportteam.

I created a ticket for this issue, because it is a serious bug and present in more builds now.

In order to bump this bug, I will post the update here and once I receive a ticketnr. it will be posted here as well (in the subjectline, if possible).

UPDATE 2 - ticket #2023062217003086

Now I have a ticketnumber, I will attach it here so any dev can find it back.

- edit - can't alter the subject, so I can not place the ticket there, as was told to me once.

Petersson wrote on 6/23/2023, 11:05 AM

Response from customer support;

Thank you for your message

We've gone ahead and escalated this to our QA team so they can begin looking into a possible fix for this matter.

My resonse;

Thank you.

If there is anything I can do to test / debug / whatever this particular issue, please let me know.

mark-y wrote on 6/23/2023, 5:14 PM

I don't know if it is possible with that plugin, but when available I adjust by numeric increments (usually Arrow keys) rather than click-and-drag 360 contols. I know that joystick-like contol is visually nice, but x-y movement is way easier on your graphics. I always use x-y controls in the color grading panel, as well.

Petersson wrote on 6/23/2023, 5:24 PM

Thanks 😁 - but that's a workaround / patch, I (and many with me) want a solution.

I do have wireless joystick input for scratching and scrubbing (I don't do video).

And for this plugin in particular, keyboard input is not possible when dragging EQ-points to finetune a very particular part of the spectrum.

It counts on pixels and milliseconds, so you really need to finetune it by hearing and seeing what you are doing.

Of course you can set the desired level / adjustment by keyboard (the plugin even has a build on onscreen keyboard for this, because many DAW's don't have a physical keyboard attached) but that's not how you want to work.

Also the bug affects all plugins, not just this one or mine.

See images below, a typical setup for some basic audio-editing; you don't want to finetune by keyboard, you do it by bezièrs and vectorpoints / pivots.

Also you finetune the audio not only by EQ but also spectrum and you can adjust the colors by mouse (which reflects the audio-output).

It is very basic, but worked perfect in Vegas 20 / build 370 (and all before). Build 401 and 411 f*cked everything up.

 

Petersson wrote on 8/18/2023, 5:10 AM

UPDATE - VEGAS 21
ticket #2023081817001574
_____________________________________

Since Vegas 21 the dev-team has a dedicated audio-developer 🙂

I am an "audio only" user for Vegas since about Vegas version 3, so I am happy he / she joined the team.

Audio has a lot of major and minor bugs in Vegas, and I am willing to document them all.

Most of the annoying bug is introduced in Vegas 20 / build 4.x.x

That bug is the bug best described like this;

When a parameter for a VST 2 / 3 plugin is attached to an enveloppe / automation event,
changing the parameter for that particular plugin is sluggish / slow / tearing.

E.g. you dial on a knob or change a slider with your mouse (in the plugin window) and when that knob or slider is bound to a automation enveloppe, the movement of your mouse / dial / knob / slider is not fluid; it delays both optical and measured in time.

_____________________________________
VEGAS 21 - status

This problem is now 'half solved' in Vegas 21, please take the time to understand.

  1. When you change a parameter in the plugin (bound to a enveloppe), this is now fluid as always;
  2. But when you change the enveloppe (bézier curve, bound to a plugin), this still is sluggish / delayed.

So when communication is from PLUGIN » ENVELOPPE, it seems the bug is squased.

But when communication is from ENVELOPPE » PLUGIN, it still gets delayed.

_____________________________________

In the above video I demonstrate this bug, in both Vegas 20 (build 370) and Vegas 21 (build 108).

You can see which Vegas I am using in the upper left corner.

  1. In Vegas 20 everything is smooth, both from "plugin to curve" and "curve to plugin".
  2. In Vegas 21 "plugin to curve" is now okayish, and "curve to plugin" is still delayed.

From the movie maybe it looks like a minor bug, but that's because the framerate of my capture software is not 100%, in real live you really feel / see / experience the sluggish movement of the plugin and / or curve.

_____________________________________
CONCLUSION

For now, I decided to stick with Vegas 20, build 370 because (although it has it's quirks) it is fluid and usable, where Vegas 21 looks very promising, but this bugs makes a daily workflow "impossible" (or at least extreme frustrating).

I really hope this post helps and the last bug (curve to plugin) is fixed in the next build; than Vegas 21 is on par with Vegas 20 and has a beautiful future!

- edit -

I also did update my ticket for the Vegas customer service with my findings, hopefully someone reads it and can reproduce the bug as described above.

They closed this bug as 'solved', but it's not.

So I re-submitted the issue and got a new ticketnumber 2023081817001574.

Petersson wrote on 8/18/2023, 4:32 PM

UPDATE

@vegasdimitar

I discovered that the "lag" from host » plugin is gone when the plugin is out of sight.

See my updated post : https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/bug-vst-becomes-slow-if-attached-to-envelope-vegas-20-401-411--141369/

So "not showing" the plugin resolves all the issues; the plugin can still be active, but "when you don't see it, it doesn't lag the enveloppes at all".

  1. In the above capture I bind a plugin (EQ) to an enveloppe; it is sluggish when moving the enveloppe
  2. Once you switch to another plugin (and keeping both enveloppe and EQ active), it is now all smooth

For me this is the evidence that the issue is not the plugin, but the way Vegas handles it; it works supersmooth once the plugin is not visible.

So it has something to do with the redraw of the interface, since all functions are still the same (only not visible in sight).

rraud wrote on 8/19/2023, 10:38 AM

I discovered that the "lag" from host » plugin is gone when the plugin is out of sight

If I understand what you experience correctly @Petersson, this has been the case for a long time, going back to VP-16 or earlier AFAIK.

pierre-k wrote on 8/19/2023, 11:13 AM

This reminds me of the situation with Video plugins. It often happens in more complex projects that if I want to use Shift+B, if some plugin is open, the video jerks in some places. Even when using Shit+B repeatedly. All plugin windows must be closed.

This problem is in every version.

Petersson wrote on 8/21/2023, 4:15 AM

I discovered that the "lag" from host » plugin is gone when the plugin is out of sight

If I understand what you experience correctly @Petersson, this has been the case for a long time, going back to VP-16 or earlier AFAIK.

No, it was introduced after Vegas 20 / build 370 (the bug, not the solution).

So from Vegas 20 / build 4.x.x it started, because they implemented a (new) way how host and plugin did communicate, resulting in an awful laggy experience.

Due to my feedback one part of the problem was solved in Vegas 21 / build 108 (plugin 2 host), but host 2 plugin is still laggy as sh*t (that's shizzle, lol).

What I experience (and is confirmed by both other users and the dev-team) is not the thing you are referring to (I guess).

All build up to (including) Vegas 20 / build 370 were working perfectly fine (that's why I am still using build 370 / 20).

Petersson wrote on 8/21/2023, 4:16 AM

This reminds me of the situation with Video plugins. It often happens in more complex projects that if I want to use Shift+B, if some plugin is open, the video jerks in some places. Even when using Shit+B repeatedly. All plugin windows must be closed.

This problem is in every version.

I don't do video, but this particular issue (confirmed by the devs) started in Vegas 20 / build 4.x.x. due to "optimization" of how the VST plugins where handled.

Please, see my comment above this one for some more detail :-)

Petersson wrote on 11/11/2023, 7:51 AM

Still waiting for a solution.

After almost a year the bug is still present and making audio-editing in Vegas a joke.

See also this post.

VEGASDerek wrote on 11/11/2023, 8:59 AM

@Petersson, you been request to help us by joining the beta test program, but you have refused...please stop bashing us if you are unwilling to help us solve your problems.

RogerS wrote on 11/11/2023, 9:04 AM

It would be great to have audio specialists helping with beta testing of VEGAS.

Custom PC (2022) Intel i5-13600K with UHD 770 iGPU with latest driver, MSI z690 Tomahawk motherboard, 64GB Corsair DDR5 5200 ram, NVIDIA 2080 Super (8GB) with latest studio driver, 2TB Hynix P41 SSD, Windows 11 Pro 64 bit

Dell XPS 15 laptop (2017) 32GB ram, NVIDIA 1050 (4GB) with latest studio driver, Intel i7-7700HQ with Intel 630 iGPU (latest available driver), dual internal SSD (1TB; 1TB), Windows 10 64 bit

VEGAS Pro 19.651
VEGAS Pro 20.411
VEGAS Pro 21.208

Try the
VEGAS 4K "sample project" benchmark: https://forms.gle/ypyrrbUghEiaf2aC7
VEGAS Pro 20 "Ad" benchmark: https://forms.gle/eErJTR87K2bbJc4Q7

rraud wrote on 11/11/2023, 9:40 AM

t would be great to have audio specialists helping with beta testing of VEGAS.

AFAIK, there are very few of us. I usually try to duplicate user issues if I have the specific plug-ins and other variables that would affect the behavior.
I am also a Sound Forge beta tester using SF since v3 and Vegas since the initial 1999 publication of (audio-only) Vegas by Sonic Foundry.

Petersson wrote on 11/11/2023, 12:14 PM

@Petersson, you been request to help us by joining the beta test program, but you have refused...please stop bashing us if you are unwilling to help us solve your problems.

Sorry?

I am not bashing anything or anyone.

The bug marked as "solved" in the changelog is simply still there.

That is not bashing, it's a fact.

____________________________________________________

And I don't want to fight over it, but I was indeed ask for the bèta program, which I actually wanted to join!

But there was fine of tens of thousands of USD (non disclosure) in the contract I had to sign, so I asked gently "to contact my lawyer first" and also "if that was okay with the Vegas team".

After that, I did not have any response, I am still waiting for months for an answer (if that's okay).

Also, before I posted here (today) I did mention (by mail) the contract and non disclosure again, and also stated once again that I am willing to help you (and us) out.

So please, do not change the subject or point with fingers: I am 100% here to help and was only asking for more details about the personal fine, stated in the contract.

Also I promised (by mail) to report my feedback about this specific bug (which I did) in case I was not enrolled in the program.

Maybe my mails were in the spam? Or you didn't receive them? I can show screenshots (made anymouse) if you persist on it.

____________________________________________________

I have been struggling for hours today to install a trial of Vegas 21, newest build. I did once try the previous build and my trial did not work with then newest build, so I had to buy it.

No problem, but I first wanted to know if the bug was squased, as promised. So I had to create a new virtual machine, install software, transfer test-projects, etc... which I all did.

The first thing I noticed by testing : all audio bugs are still there. So I am not going to buy the new version which is not working for me. But that is not bashing, I spend half my free saturday to test and debug for free.

____________________________________________________

Serious, a person willing to help and describing serious bugs is not bashing the product.

Just to clear things out, my original response and a follow up from today (see screendumps).

I am really not bashing, I am just waiting for answer (and "yes", the bugs are still there).

And those are not "my problems" as you stated (I reverse engineered Vegas 20 build 370 and create my own .exe to bypass the startup bug). It is "Vegas' problems", because all professional users are affected by the audio bugs.

____________________________________________________

Once again : I really think something is wrong with the communication, I am just trying to help the product out.

Petersson wrote on 11/11/2023, 12:21 PM

It would be great to have audio specialists helping with beta testing of VEGAS.

I volonteered, but didn't get any response.

And now they tell me I am bashing the dev-team?

Serious, I'm a devver myself : I know how this works.

vegasdimitar wrote on 11/11/2023, 2:14 PM

@Petersson Thank you for your feedback. I am very sorry to hear that our work does not meet your expectations. To be honest however, at this point I am not sure why you are experiencing those problems, since we have explicitly worked on this issue. Please see the screen recording attached here... Of course, It would be great to have you on the beta team, please arrange that with @VEGASDerek.

 

Petersson wrote on 11/11/2023, 2:25 PM

@Petersson Thank you for your feedback. I am very sorry to hear that our work does not meet your expectations. To be honest however, at this point I am not sure why you are experiencing those problems, since we have explicitly worked on this issue. Please see the screen recording attached here... Of course, It would be great to have you on the beta team, please arrange that with @VEGASDerek.

 

Hi,

Don't thank me, thank the community :-)

I think something really went wrong with communications.

I am willing (like I always was) to test the things out, I just was "scared" for the contract (the fine) but I already explained it.

So I will wait for answer (by mail, I guess) and do the best I can!

Thanks once again!

vegasdimitar wrote on 11/11/2023, 2:31 PM

@Petersson Are you able to see my video in the previous post? (since im unsure how well the upload went). This is the VST2 of Melda EQ , automated. I have attached the gain and the frequency of the 4th band to automation evelopes and I am changing the value of the automation from the host. I am not experiencing ANY lag in either direction. Are you doing something differently? Thank you

PS: feel free to tag me in posts concerning such audio processing issues.

Petersson wrote on 11/11/2023, 2:57 PM

@Petersson Are you able to see my video in the previous post? (since im unsure how well the upload went). This is the VST2 of Melda EQ , automated. I have attached the gain and the frequency of the 4th band to automation evelopes and I am changing the value of the automation from the host. I am not experiencing ANY lag in either direction. Are you doing something differently? Thank you

PS: feel free to tag me in posts concerning such audio processing issues.


@vegasdimitar

Yes, your video is perfect. Thanks for all the afford your make!

I have to enroll in the bèta program first (I think) because I am not able to install Vegas 21 on my daily machine (I did this with the previous build, but the trial is expired and I can not install a new build of the same version without paying first).

Because I wanted to know "for sure" if the bug was squashed (before paying 150 $) I installed it on another machine.

On that (particular) machine the same bug was still present (in the same test-file I've used to produce and reproduce this very bug).

To be sure this is not a device-bug anymore, but a software-bug (or not, of course) I need to install it on the "original" hardware (daily machine) first.

So I just wait a little until I get response for that contract I have to sign :-)

I can throw my money on the table, no problem, but if I can check the beta (in stead of the trial) first, I opt-in for that route to shared success :-)

Thanks for answering, in the weekend / on a saterday.

"I will be back" once I know more!

VEGASPascal wrote on 11/13/2023, 10:41 AM

@Petersson

We want to assure you that we take the community input very seriously. Currently, we are in the process of overhauling the audio engine, as the old one has proved to be full of limitations and bugs.

Our dedicated audio developer, @vegasdimitar , is fully committed to addressing these issues head-on. We understand the importance of delivering a professional product to our customers, and Dimitar is working diligently to ensure that the new engine meets the highest audio-editing standards.

Unfortunately, not all plugins conform to the VST standard and use additional properties. In some cases, Dimitar has to make special code adjustments for certain reported plugins in order to still make them usable for our users.

Therefore, at this point, an official thank you ❤️ to Dimitar for his great work.