Yup... already done. This makes it a pain in the butt for me to use the trimmer now :(

Why do you want to "cheapen" Vegas by having the development team expend money on supporting a toy camera that no pro would ever use?
Perhaps it's time you moved on to a more suitable application.

What goes around comes around, eh?

On a constructive note, have you tried exporting the audio to a polyphonic wave file first, I don't know how the trimmer handles them either however it should keep all the channels together at least. To do this you have to assign your tracks to busses. Sorry if I'm a bit vague on this but it's been a while since I last used this excellent feature.

Bob.

"Why do you want to "cheapen" Vegas by having the development team expend money on supporting a toy camera that no pro would ever use?"

Well... let me use my words from another thread:
"I would like to issue a hearty thank you to the SCS boys for developing (and continuing to develop) a product that we can use in a fast and effective manor as as

But more to the point.... It does say "AC3 support" on the side of the box ;)

Not withstanding.... that "toy camera" takes some pretty bloody clear video

Thanks for the idea Bob... but it's yet another conversion to further complicate the issue. I think (for now anyway) I'll just avoid the trimmer as much as possible and go back to trimming directly on the time line. HOPEFULLY they'll have a look at this sometime in the near future!!

can you drop/drag another audio channel to the trimmer from the TL?

Good question. I'll get back to you later on that (I'm at work right now)

>> The trimmer only works in stereo.

Why don't you stupid whiners go and whine about Vegas somewhere else? Just move on will you!

"can you drop/drag another audio channel to the trimmer from the TL?"

Interesting...
Yes you can drag the audio from another track to the trimmer... and even when you drag the rear track for example, trim it then hit A to place it back onto the time line....it will even re-insert the clip back onto the proper track (the rear track).

It just simply won't handle any more than two channels at a time, and I assume THAT'S the only reason why 5.1 tracks won't go.

There is no reason the trimmer should work in 5.1.
Vegas Pro is a PRO app, no professional nor semi-professional camera in the world has 5.1 recording capability. I suppose one could make the argument that HDCAM has 8 channels...but they are discreet channels meant to be...anyway...

I'd like to say this would be a nice feature for Vegas to have, but at the end of the day...it's arguably useless.

"I'd like to say this would be a nice feature for Vegas to have, but at the end of the day...it's arguably useless."

Well... those buying SONY consumer level cams will surely disagree with you Spot because the fact is that ALL these new Sony cams are coming out as 5.1 surround.

Now SCS did go to the extent of fixing it so you can IMPORT mts and m2ts with 5.1 surround, why stop there. It doesn't make sense. If a pro app is not designed to work with 5.1 on the time line then why did they allow the import if it???

And when did I say the SR11 was a pro cam???

BTW: The holophone is a 5.1 surround mic. Its price tag is around $6000. Are you saying this mic is aimed at consumers because pros would never use them? The holophone is actually Dolby prologic which allows a pro cam to record 5.1 on 2 channels.

In fact, here's a list of holophone users (I don't see too many consumers on it):
http://www.holophone.com/action_list.html

What Spot is trying to say is that when you get into pro-level productions, all of the audio is recorded on separate gear and synched in post.

If you take the time to analyze Hollywood DVD audio, you will find that the LFE and rear channels are primarily for SoundFX and music score support. The front L-R speakers will carry almost exclusively the music and Foley. If you isolate the front-center channel, you will find all of the dialogue.

The Foley studio is probably the only place that "stereo" is recorded. (Stereo is a consumer term).

I agree with Spot. Since this is only the second time in as many years that this issue has come up on the forums, it certainly isn't a compelling issue.

i'm old, so bear with me.....

5.1. does this mean you have more than a stereo mic on the camera? or you can plug in additional mics?

my old beta sp deck had 4 audio channels, as did one of my hi8 cameras / vtr's. never used them in acquisition - in post the four sp channels were used regularly....

but this 5.1? i really don't understand..... what does it record?

old fart bubbling around in the bath of life

Look at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surround_sound

This explains 5.1 and a lot of other audio presentation formats.

You are unlikely to ever record a full 5 channels of location audio. The designation of 3.1, 5.1, 7.1 and even 22.2 usually refer to the audio presentation in the theater or venue. Not what is recorded.

"The holophone is actually Dolby prologic which allows a pro cam to record 5.1 on 2 channels."

Not the same thing. The list of users you're referencing refers to users of their H2-PRO. I've had one in my hands several times, it has a LOT of XLR plugs.

The H2-PRO terminates in eight XLR microphone cable-ends (Left, Right, Center, Low Frequency, Left Surround, Right Surround, Top, and Center Rear). These co-relate to the standard 5.1-channels and add a top channel for formats such as IMAX and a center rear channel for extended surround formats such as Dolby EX and DTS ES. Recording engineers and producers have total control and flexibility over the incoming, discrete surround sound audio signals and may choose to use as many or as few channels as any surround project requires as channel assignments are discrete all the way from the recording and mixing process to final delivery.

Their cheaper on camera unit has an inbuilt Prologic encoder for recording to cameras with only a stereo channel.
I have been up close and personal with these microphones. I was at NAB 2007 when they had their little consummer Holophone on display. I was not what their demo reel was recorded on.


In the hands of professionals who know what they're doing and understand the considerable complexities of surround sound they're a pretty useful tool. In reality an on camera microphone is pretty much incapable of recording a decent stereo image let alone a surround image. If nothing else where you'd put a microphone for an optimal stereo image is a very different place to where you'd put a camera, sound and light do not work the same.

Bob.

"I agree with Spot. Since this is only the second time in as many years that this issue has come up on the forums, it certainly isn't a compelling issue."

So because it's only the second time means that it's not worth doing something about??? Where's the logic in that statement? With each new 5.1 cam that comes out, it's bound to come up more and more.

Of course this is not affecting you, so I can understand why you don't see the importance of it, but I wonder how much of a priority it would be if it DID affect you?

"In reality an on camera microphone is pretty much incapable of recording a decent stereo image let alone a surround image. If nothing else where you'd put a microphone for an optimal stereo image is a very different place to where you'd put a camera, sound and light do not work the same."

That's not Spot's point.

Spot's point was that no pro cam has 5.1 ability and it's not used in the pro arena. The existance and use of the holophone proves otherwise.

5.1 IS USED in the pro industry

Your also a bit wrong on the on-cam mic on the sr11. Although it certainly isn't to pro standards, it does seem to work. The cam operator's voice comes more to the rear than the front, the subject's voice is more to the front. There is definitely a certain amount of depth and direction within the channels presented. It is most certainly NOT a stereo track copied and pasted to the rear. It sounds pretty bloody good too compared to my HC3 and HV20.

"5.1. does this mean you have more than a stereo mic on the camera? or you can plug in additional mics?"

No. Only one mic input and when you plug a mic into it the cam automatically reverts back to a standard two-channel cam.

The idea behind 5.1 sound is to mimic the human ear as best as possible. When some one approaches you from the left rear you can hear it. It's not just a noise coming from SOMEWHERE and you have to look around and see. Granted the average human only has 2 ears but none the less, because of their location (each one picking up different frequencies and different pressure levels) the brain can work out exactly where that sound is coming from and how close it is. In other words the sound has depth and direction to it.

5.1 sound TRIES to mimic the same thing. If someone off camera yells from the left rear then you should ideally know that they are somewhere left and rear of the camera when the clip is played back. The sr11 TO A CERTAIN EXTENT has this ability. I put emphasis on CERTAIN because the sr11's mic system is definitely NOT at the quality level of the holophone and does not produce crystal clear direction. There is no depth to the sound at all (as is probably the case with the holophone as well)..... but under proper conditions there IS a certain amount of left/right/front/rear direction that can be noticed. When I bought the sr11 I sort of figured that the rear tracks would merely be sort of a copy/paste of the front tracks... in other words the same sound pumped to the rears speakers. This is NOT the case. The sound tracks are in fact different from one another. I'm not sure how Sony is doing it but it is not a simple replication of sound tracks.

Here's a good example of a CONSUMER level surround mic. The Vive sells for about $80 and works on the prologic basis so it can matrix the surround tracks into 2 channel stereo. This allows it to be plugged into any 2 channel cam and produce somewhat true surround effect.

If you have a dolby 5.1 sound card and prologic ability you can CLEARLY here the front-rear-left-right action

The disadvantage of the pro logic systems though is that it is a lot more involved if you want to edit it. To the best of my knowledge there is still no software answer to decoding prologic. I have edited it before and what I have had to do is play it back while at the same time record each channel in real time (with adobe audition which has multi channel recording ability) This then gives you the separate tracks in order to tweak and such. If you'll notice, the vive mic stinks for lower frequency reproduction, but if you separate the tracks you can always tweak the lower frequencies in any sound editor.

http://www.codectest.com/productreviews/vive-surround-sound-microphone-review.html

(Ignore the "can you edit" commentary from the review. The author clearly doesn't know what he's talking about. There is no "AC3" output with this mic).

"5.1 IS USED in the pro industry"

Certainly not as ac3 Dolby, show me any location recorder that records 5.1 ac3?
Surround sound is used. Do you know HOW it is used?
Let me assure you it is NOT used by sticking a microphone on a camera. Surround atmos tracks are NOT edited in sync with anything recorded into a camera, period. If they were the outcome would be absolutely bloody horrible to put it very mildly. That I believe was Spot's point.
Even more to the point location atmos is pretty much always recorded to discrete tracks, not as 5.1 or Prologic. That's why there's all those uber expensive multitrack location recorders. That's why the Holophone has discrete outputs, it's so the sound designers can manipulate the surround image to suit the scene.
Almost all audio for movies and video is recorded in mono. The exception is some FXs (rarely) and atmospheric tracks which are laid in not by the editor, they're laid in after editing.


The reality is these cameras are a gimick. Surround sound has been added because people now have 5.1 systems and well they figure having sound coming out all the speakers will impress the wife and neighbours. It's the same con job as the 'megapixel wars'. Dumb consummers though more pixels gave them more bragging rights even though they were getting a worse picture.

I'd also point out that there are people here with decades of experience in the audio world. If you stopped trying to argue with them and took the time to listen to them, do a few years of research and study you then might not be so easily conned by gimmicks targetted at dumb consummers.

But of course please don't take our word for it, go post some of your ideas on a pro audio forum. They're a pretty humourless bunch that could use a good laugh.

Bob.

"Certainly not as ac3 Dolby, show me any location recorder that records 5.1 ac3?

Bob, stop clouding the issue. This has little to do with HOW 5.1 surround is used... or even what type. Point of fact...it IS RECORDED AND USED in the pro industry.

Now regardless to what the "pro" people feel about surround sound from the sr11 camera, SCS has made it possible to IMPORT mts and m2ts files WITH ac3 sound. This means that they HAD and HAVE full intentions of supporting their cameras... pro or otherwise. They merely forgot to include the trimmer in the action. I FULLY expect SCS will correct this problem if they are aware of it.

Now if you don't like this idea then if I was you I would write a loud complaint to SCS demanding an answer as to why they're showing support for these "toy" cameras. Me... I welcome it and so don't all those that have purchased the SR series cam as well as the new ones that have just come out.

Blink said:

"Of course this is not affecting you, so I can understand why you don't see the importance of it, but I wonder how much of a priority it would be if it DID affect you?"

This is quite an amazing statement. I'm just wondering why Blink does not apply this logic to himself, when he argues with people who have constant render crashes, and he and his machine do not have this problem.

"This is quite an amazing statement. "

Oh come on now Ted, that's not exactly fair.

When the heck have I ever said

"I'd like to say{[not crashing} would be a nice feature for Vegas to have, but at the end of the day...it's arguably useless."

or

"I agree with Spot. Since {not crashing} is only the second time in as many years that this issue has come up on the forums, it certainly isn't a compelling" issue.

What I have said about crashing is that,
a) My crashing is almost non existant
b)This is more often then not, some sort of hardware/software conflict so look for that before you start blaming Vegas.

>> Oh come on now Ted, that's not exactly fair.

Yes it is. When others point out that Vegas has some real problems in areas where there is a real need to have as few problems as possible you tell them to pizz off and stop whining. When you ask for support for a PRO feature and you refuse to listen to PROs telling you why it would be useless, you demand respect for your (arguably dumb) opinions.

Again blink, when you end up arguing with people, and you frequently do, the reason is mostly with YOU. Start looking into what it is about YOUR behavior that antagonizes people. It usually isn't other peoples fault. It is typically a problem with YOU. Self-insight is tremendously valuable, you have none.