I prefer the bitrate calculator found at http://www.johncline.com/bitcalc110.zip.
Click "Settings" at the lower left corner of the main screen and click "1 kilobit = 1000 bits".
You can also set your default AC-3 value here.
I use 192 as it's the default in Vegas when you do an AC-3 encode.
You can go higher if you want to but your video bitrate will suffer.
I also change the "Safety Margin" from it's default of 1% to 5% to guarantee that it will fit.

I;m curious as to why you render in PCM format when DVDA will change it to AC-3 anyway (unless you tell it to use PCM audio).
Save the extra work that DVDA will have to do and encode in AC-3 to begin with.

Because of the length of the video, you definitely want to do it as a custom VBR 2-pass MPEG-2 encode from Vegas.
The settings can be saved a preset for future use.
This will take longer but the final result will be worth it.

Using the changes suggested above, I get the following VBR numbers.
8,704,000 / 6,960,000 / 4,716,000
It's been recommended numerous times on this and other Vegas forums to never let your MAX value (the first number) exceed 8,000,000 so that's what I set it to.

You will need to choose a layer break point in DVDA so plan accordingly.
Hopefully there's a scene in your video close to the halfway point that you can fade out and back in to use for this purpose.

If you can find them, Verbatim is the recommended brand for dual-layer DVDs.
Good luck with the project.

Mike

Hi JJK,

Are you referring to the chapter markers?
How does DVDA recognize a 'middle marker'?
I don’t see anything about it in the help.

Has this something to do with the second layer of the disc?
I am preparing the 'VIDEO TS ' folder with DVDA then place the files into Nero for burning. Not sure if Nero wil recognize the spilt function.

Thanks Mike,

Where Can I find some info about the layer break ?
I can't seem to find any info in the help.

Directly rendering AC3 @ 192 makes sense.
Sometimes I have many tracks with FX on Vegas.
Rendering a wave file usualy gives the lowest error.
Files like MP4, AC3 probably due to the compression gives errors because Vegas is doing more work packing the files during render,

VMP

Ah I see:

Preparing and Burning Your Project.

I am going to go through it, thanks

What do you mean by "error"?

@ "Chienworks

Stops rendering :-), with an error box.

Especially with AVC/AAC/MP4 when I have many tracks (with fx) and images on the timeline that exceed 4k pixels.

It's fine when there is just one video and audio track.
But when there are more audio and video tracks Vegas doesn’t want to render with heavy codecs.
It prefers PCM and DV, or uncompressed.

So before I render to AVC I render all the tracks to one DV file before converting.

Also with many audio tracks (with FX) on the timeline I first render them to a single track as wav. Then solo it before render, that also gives a error-free render,

With files that require the whole night to render for example that’s a good safety precaution.
Instead of realizing that the render has halted halfway the next day.

Sometimes also blue-screen of death happens during AVC render. I think it has also something to do with my audio card, error dump has stated this sometimes. But never with wav or DV renders. So the codec has something to so with this.

I hope I am not highjacking VMP's thread with this question, because I think it is relevant.

I create a project with a single "title" (i.e. video file) with several chapter markers linked to menu buttons. I make the DVD project in DVDA and try to burn to dual layer, but there is no chapter marker sufficiently close to the middle to make a suitable break. DVDA suggests a range where it should be. I study the video on the timeline in DVDA and insert a marker between two scenes that lie in the suitable range. I now find that this marker takes over my chapter info, and the buttons after it are out by one. I then have to go through and re-direct each button to point to its correct chapter marker again. How do I insert a "middle" marker without mucking up my original button linkage?

EDIT

I am confusing chapter markers with scene/chapter markers. If you make the layer break marker a chapter marker (NOT a scene/chapter marker) it won't muck up the button to scene links.

See also my later post.

Yes, I get that too Peter. Don't think there's any way out of that as DVDA is referencing chapter numbers, not names. (Don't think so anyway). As long as you're aware of it, it takes only a few secs to put right. Not sure why you're not rendering a separate AC-3 file VMP? That's what I feed into DVDA. I also recommend nothing OTHER THAN Verbatim +DL. Everything else I've tried has been a fail. Burn at a slower speed than MAX too!

That's a useful looking Bitrate calculator Mike - thanks. Haven't found one yet though that calculates where to insert the layer break chapter. I prefer to do a fade to black at that point which makes the change pretty much invisible.

Yes they are Verbatim DVDDL :-).

Just to be clear (using DVDA 4).

Are these the steps for creating the custom layer break point?

Make DVD-> Write Master->Current project-> Mastering->Number of layers->' 2'->Next->'Prompt me to choose the layer break point'->Finish.

Then DVDA 'prepares' some files..
Later some 'break' options are shown.

Unless you let DVD Architect choose the break point, it will be unlikely to work. This has been an unfortunate "feature" going back many versions.

Several people here prefer to prepare a folder or ISO in Architect without a break point, and do the rest of the work, including setting the break point, in ImgBurn.

Personally, I gave up on delivering burned DL DVD a long time ago because I discovered that compatibility in the real world is spotty, to say the least. Instead, I deliver a two disc set if my program is much in excess of 100 minutes.

HTH

Thanks musicvid,

Is the disc more compatible if I let DVD architect choose the break point?

I have indeed also thought about the two disc option.
But the movie will be shown in front of a large (payed) public, changing the disc in between would give quite a gap of time in between. I wanted to avoid that.

"Is the disc more compatible if I let DVD architect choose the break point?"

In my experience, yes. But playability problems with burned DL discs persist in the real world, thus my decision to only burn them for my own use.

Here's another thought for you:
Large audience = large screen, right?
Without doing the math, I think you should easily fit a 3 hr. program at 720p on a BluRay 25, and you'll have a lot clearer picture (if your source is HD).
You can also put many, many hours of SD on a BluRay.
Am I right, BluRay experts?

That sounds good, music vid,

Though I have never burned a blueray yet or have a BD burner.
The burners are now quite cheap so that wouldnt be a problem.
I wonder if DVD Architect 4 burns blurays. Otherwise I will have to upgrade aswell.

The source is SD (camera Sony VX 2000).

DV

General
Format : AVI
Format/Info : Audio Video Interleave
Format_Commercial_IfAny : DV
File size : 47.4 MiB
Duration : 13s 40ms
Overall bit rate : 30.5 Mbps
TCOD : 10770000000
TCDO : 10900400000
VMAJ : 4
VMIN : 0
STAT : 326 0 3.435599 1
DTIM : 29861405 2902389120

Video
ID : 0
Format : DV
Codec ID : dvsd
Codec ID/Hint : Sony
Duration : 13s 40ms
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 24.4 Mbps
Width : 720 pixels
Height : 576 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Standard : PAL
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Interlaced
Compression mode : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 2.357
Stream size : 44.8 MiB (94%)

Audio
ID : 1
Format : PCM
Format settings, Endianness : Little
Format settings, Sign : Signed
Codec ID : 1
Codec ID/Hint : Microsoft
Duration : 13s 40ms
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 1 536 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Bit depth : 16 bits
Stream size : 2.39 MiB (5%)
Interleave, duration : 277 ms (6.94 video frames)
Interleave, preload duration : 280 ms

"playability problems with burned DL discs persist in the real world"

I took some dual-layer DVDs that I made when I visited my brother in Georgia a few years ago. He had three different DVD players. Only one played very far past the layer break and none of them made it all the way through all of the disks without stuttering or failing outright. My personal perception of DL is quite low on the compatibility scale even though I currently use Verbatim media. My current Sony S-550 Blu-ray player has done a good job with them, but when you hand a DVD to someone else, you don't have much control over what happens to it.

"You can also put many, many hours of SD on a Blu-ray. Am I right, Blu-ray experts?"

I'm not an expert, but I have put many hours of SD video on Blu-ray without giving a great deal of thought to bit rate calculators. Usually, I run out of material or interest before I run out of space.

"Video"

Since the source is not HD, there is a limit to the improvement in video quality to be expected. I seem to remember reading somewhere that, coming from a DV source and rendering to MPEG 2, there is diminishing returns with bit rates above 8 mbps. This is likely because of the the Index frames and the long group of pictures of MPEG 2. Quite different if the source was 25 mbps MPEG 2.

"I wonder if DVD Architect 4 burns blu-rays. Otherwise I will have to upgrade as well.

You will have to upgrade the DVD Architect 5.

One nice thing about using Blu-ray is you can use all the extra bit rate capacity to use PCM audio if that appeals to you. Besides, the player prices are getting low enough that you could almost afford to hand your friends a Blu-ray that you made and give them a player, too.

Thanks John Dennis,

I am going to do a test run soon at the theater so I could test the DL.
But I think I am going to skip the DL. The two disc option is probably my best chance. I could just tell the audience that there will be a small pause in between due to the disc change.
Will add a fade in between the two parts.

Though I shall try to go for the bluray as well, the PCM audio sounds great!
I can imagine that the video quality won’t get any ‘better’ but am instead focusing on preserving it.

Even with DVD I do notice that the different codec’s gives different ‘light levels’ you could say ‘brightness’.
The rendered Mpeg2 videos are really darker compared to the original DV footage on the Vegas timeline. Like stars in space almost disappear giving a dark space. Boosting the brightness before render only seems to fix this. I am not sure if there is some other codec setting that I can change to fix this.

Divx and Xvid seems to do the opposite and add extra brightness giving everything a washed look.

You must render to mpeg-2 to make a DVD.
To correct the levels shift from AVI source, apply the Computer RGB -> Studio RGB levels filter, or hand tweak the levels to 16-235 using the Video Scopes (Histogram) before rendering.

If there is not a lot of motion detail in your video, you may get by with burning the whole thing to one DVD by setting a lower bitrate. It's worth a try. For starters, use 2,000,000 min, 3,800,000 avg, 9,500,000 max 2-pass VBR. That's with an AC3 audio file, not PCM.

Thanks musicvid I shall give that a try.

Do get the Bitrate calculator. And do follow Musicvids advice. You may well be on the cusp of Time/Quality, but use this opportunity to test-out the advice here. I know I had too when I was getting close to the 2.5 hour range.

Visual noise, grainy movement, fireworks, sparkles, noisy gained-up footage and so on are the main culprits for needing higher rates. If these aren't the majority of the movie, then a lower rate would get you more "space" on the DVD. If visual noise is a major part of the video then apply denoising FX to flatten those areas. Simply put: Less Noise=Lower Bit Rate=Smaller File Size.

I've done 2hrs 20mins = 140mins with a quite acceptable AND playable DVD.

You are so much on the edge here that I can't impress on you hard enough to give bitrate experimentation a go. Better going this way than Duallies, and all that could mean for you and your recipient of your hard won footage.

Cheers

Grazie

You can also try two-pass encoding. It might help a smidgin.

In case some archeologist stumbles on this thread sometime in the future, I have corrected the misinformation in my earlier post about setting markers for a layer break. I was confusing chapter markers with the default scene/chapter markers.

If you insert a scene/chapter marker to set the layer break, this marker will become linked to the menu button that used to link to the next scene/chapter marker, and so on, requiring you to manually relink these buttons. However, if you immediately change the inserted layer break marker to be a chapter marker, no relinking occurs or is necessary.

Chapter markers allow you to step through a video using the remote control, while scene/chapter markers not only do this but also link to a button on the scene menu.