Change of Soundcard - Complete Stability!

stakeoutstudios wrote on 3/6/2004, 4:11 AM

I just felt I had to share my joy with everyone here - I've completely re-discovered my love of Vegas since changing my sound card.

My machine has gone from an unstable mess (crashes 5-20 times per day) complete lockups, freezes, crackles on recording, crackles on playback, un-necessarily high latency, and a general non-responsive feel.

It has gone from this to literally the opposite. It is now virtually flawless and a pleasure to deal with, I can push many more tracks, have no crackles glitches or dropouts, just beautiful pristine audio. The machine has seriously not crashed once in a week of solid use, puching the machine really hard, since I installed this soundcard. I can't even hear any noise on the card - a great sign, it's just transparent!

My system:

Sony Vegas 4.0e
Windows XP SP1 (up to date drivers etc)
NVidia N-Force 2
AMD Athlon XP 2400+
2x Western Digital 120GB JB hard-drives raid striped as multitrack audio partition.
1x IBM 180GXP 180GB as data / storage drive.
512MB CAS2 DDR 400 ram
Zalman 400Watt power supply
4x Universal Audio UAD1 Powered Plugin Cards.

Being fed by all manley of nice gear including Manley and Universal Audio preamps.

The sound-card I changed was the M-audio Delta 1010, and I swapped it for an Echo Layla 24.

I can't say enough about the Echo's ease of installation, and couldn't possibly complement the card and breakout box enough for how professionally they look, sound and behave!

Mixing on this system has been a pleasure, but what has surprised me most of all is how much difference changing the soundcard made to the overall performance of the system! Just as if I played games I would buy a high performance graphics card, the same applies to sound-cards for pro audio. Although now I have compared the Echo Layla to the M-Audio I will never touch M-Audio again!

Vegas 4 is beautiful, and most of the bugs I attributed to Vegas or blamed my Universal Audio cards... have simply disappeared!

The only one remaining bug is that I experience excessive CPU host usage when running powered plugins, although this is a well documented problem between Sony Vegas and Universal Audio UAD1 cards. Even then, this problem has been reduced, and the system is running inexplicably a lot smoother.

Now I'm truly excited about the concept of Vegas 5!

Happy days indeed,
Jason

Comments

farss wrote on 3/6/2004, 5:53 AM

Trying to work out which soundcard to buy based on peoples experiences on this forum is a nightmare. Sometimes I think I'd do better asking the local butcher. I'm not for a minute doubting the truth of everyones experiences but I've been advised by at least one expert that just about every sound card ever made is not only the best but the only one that could possibly ever work with Vegas.

For myself I have the M-Audio Firewire 410 and so far it seems to work pretty damn well, well at least after I updated the drivers / firmware. It can get a bit twitchy running it and the ADVC-300, at times the 410 interface tries to take over the 300 which gets a tad messy. I didn't realise until after I'd bought the unit that M-Audio were considered a bit Mac centric but by all accounts the software for this unit is pretty much 100% but they're still having grief with it on the Mac side.

I'd bet we could find someone, somewhere whose system suddenly worked 100% better when he replaced his Echo Layla with a Delta 410.

stakeoutstudios wrote on 3/6/2004, 6:32 AM

I don't doubt that it is possible to make a delta or M-Audio card work in certain systems - I'm sure there are a few people who do. Indeed mine was OK on a lesser system runnning win98 with no Universal Audio cards.

I would however bet that if you try an echo unit, you'd most likely be happy.

I've been looking for this card for sale second-hand since August... it's now March and I had to buy one brand new. There just aren't any on the second-hand market. there are however tonnes of M-Audio related things second hand, as far as I can make out it's because people give up trying to make them work, like myself.

The 410 is much newer than the 1010 so they may well have improved the hardware itself!

Certainly M-Audio's customer care, drivers and installation / update system need some major attention... Possibly even the Delta 1010 hardware itself!

farss wrote on 3/6/2004, 6:38 AM

Actually the main reason I went with the 410 was it was all I could find that had all that I wanted, mainly I wanted something portable I could hook up to my laptop as well as my main system and I liked the idea of getting the analogue audio outside the PCs case. The other thing I needed, in fact the original thing that drove me to buy something was I needed SPDIF in, I figured while I'm at it I might as well get half decent mic and line inputs as well.

So now I've added a Rode mic and I've been recording VOs in the lounge room, hardly ideal but good enough for what it's being used for.

drbam wrote on 3/6/2004, 6:58 AM

>>I'd bet we could find someone, somewhere whose system suddenly worked 100% better when he replaced his Echo Layla with a Delta 410. <<

Well if you are talking about use with Sony apps, then I will take that bet! There are literally dozens of posts related to maudio driver problems on these forums alone - not to mention other forums that have about the same ratio of complaints. To the contrary the Echo products have shown (at least on these forums) to be more reliable with Sony apps than any other - period! Just do some searches if you think I'm incorrect. I'm glad that your maudio card is working well for you but for many, they are simply a nightmare. Like webpuppy, some people NEVER get the driver issues straightened out and need to move to something else. The only time I hear about someone moving from an Echo card is when they are wanting to dramatically upgrade their converters ($2000 range and up) or they are needing a different feature set. In these cases, it has nothing to do with the Echo card's stability or reliability.

drbam

Rednroll wrote on 3/6/2004, 7:45 AM

Alls I can say is that I've been a happy echo user since the release of Vegas Pro v1.0 and have had every version of Vegas since then. I hear a few people complaining about perormance issues with Vegas 4.0 as far as popping and clicking, and not one of them has ever mentioned that they are using an Echo card. Coincidense? Maybe. Alls I know is that my system is rock solid and has half the CPU as theirs does using dual Echo Gina cards.

stakeoutstudios wrote on 3/6/2004, 7:57 AM

I wish I'd jumped on the echo boat sooner, I honestly didn't believe that so many problems could stem from a sound card. I'm truly over-the-moon in happy land.

This is the best Vegas has ever been running - and I've been with it from 1.0, just like you red.

I remember the first public beta :o)

tmrpro wrote on 3/6/2004, 10:02 AM

I don't understand it. I've been using Delta cards for over 3 years now and have never, ever had the types of problems you guys have experienced.

Between myself and the 3 studios I work with regularly to produce major label projects we have a total of 14 Delta cards in systems ranging from P3 to P4, K6 - K8 and I even have a celeron machine and a duron machine that have both at one time had a delta hooked up and running. None of these machines have ever experienced sound card related issues.

I've never experienced any problems with my Layla either, but I think it sounds about as good as an integrated sound card on an MB without the noise.

I've got outboard conversion, both Lucid and Apogee and frankly, they're gathering dust because I LOVE the way the Deltas sound.

I just got off the phone with a dear friend of mine and asked him what his thoughts were about his two Delta 1010s and he told me that when Chet Adkins died he had to run a two track interview off of a DAT machine and into file format for the TNN Tribute to Chet. The machine he used to drop it was a P3 800 with 512m ram.

He said he was afraid there might some kind of errors because the interview audio was over an hour long.

He used Vegas and let it roll and that program still runs on CMT. He told me after that was when he went down and bought another one for his other workstation.

We've produced literally thousands of songs, many of which you hear on the radio and see on music videos and use these cards to make it happen with Vegas every day without problems.

I will say that the machines we're using are optimized workstations built for the purpose of recording. No printers, no additional sound cards, peripherals or interuptive apps like virus protection, etc.

stakeoutstudios wrote on 3/6/2004, 12:20 PM

I know TMR, believe me, my system is only used for serious multitrack audio. No Internet connection, email, office apps, antivirus... Just Vegas.

I have to admit I used the deltas with reasonable reliability when I had vegas three, and old system and Win98.

Now if my understanding's correct - you always use some other method for tracking, record into Vegas with no plugins running, and then mix down.

This is not the same way I use the cards at all. Most of the problems used to arise as the system got more and more heavily loaded. Tracking became increasingly more precarious with regards to stability, dropouts, crackles, and generally poor system response!

With regards to the sound of the deltas... I know these things are subjective but I've noticed a decent improvement with the Layla 24 - I wasn't expecting one at all! I'm amazed you compared the deltas to Apogees and Lucids and such, not that I'm doubting you, but my ears tell me very much otherwise.

I have of course managed to make recordings with the deltas - ( jumping through hoops of fire ) otherwise I'd be out of business, but this, for me on my system has been a four thousand fold improvement!

Not that I'm skeptical... but you're not endorsed by M-Audio are you TMR? I've not known anyone to enthuse them other than yourself!

tmrpro wrote on 3/6/2004, 1:48 PM

******you always use some other method for tracking, record into Vegas with no plugins running, and then mix down.
******
You are right WP, I never track multitrack sessions with the cards and no one I know has yet... but....

Everytime I've put a mix up and started working with it, I always find a place to OD at least a few stereo files with keyboard and/or guitar.

I've also done tons of multitrack transfers.

******Not that I'm skeptical... but you're not endorsed by M-Audio are you TMR? I've not known anyone to enthuse them other than yourself!******

I know .... I'm thinking the same about some of the folks here and the echo stuff...but...

....No M-Audio endorsements yet, I've had to pay for every Delta I've got... But I am interested in revisiting the layla and listening to it again. I'm going to hook it back up in my new 5.1 room and play with it a little.

stakeoutstudios wrote on 3/6/2004, 5:04 PM

We're both pretty heavy duty Vegas users... just in very different ways, I've come to accept in the past that there are so many variables in a recording system, it's very difficult to find one that works....

ultimately if you do... don't change it!

I'd be interested in your comparison between the Echo and the M-audio as converters, presumably as your not tracking in Vegas are you running through A/D's twice? or digital into deltas?

I've found, subjectively with the Echo, less noise, better stereo image, better smoother top end and clearer lows. The M-Audio sounded slightly strangled by comparison and that's if I managed to record without crackles!

I also found that the hotter you recorded through the 1010's, the worse the quality - the real loud stuff lost some punch. (not clipping)

This is monitoring through my Mackie HR824s, Yamaha NS10s, and Rams monitors...

It is of course possible that my hardware had a fault of some kind and you have been lucky.

have you had a chance to listen to the Apogee Rosetta 800 yet? I'm planning on hooking one of these to the Layla for my primary eight channels, perhaps also using it as a clock to improve the Layla converters even further.

Jason

pwppch wrote on 3/6/2004, 5:24 PM

We love the Echo stuff here.

The hardware is top notch, but more importantly, the guy writing their drivers is an expert. I know him well and he knows what he is doing and this reflects in the quaility of the drivers.

If we EVER have issues, I can email them and they will fix it on the spot for me to test. If it is our fault, they will take the time to tell us what we are doing wrong. I can assure you that NOBODY else in the industry does this.

I am looking forward to their Firewire based line of products.

While we don't recommend hardware, I can say you can't go wrong with Echo products.

Peter

tmrpro wrote on 3/6/2004, 7:29 PM

******I'd be interested in your comparison between the Echo and the M-audio as converters, presumably as your not tracking in Vegas are you running through A/D's twice? or digital into deltas?******

Well, all tracks at least one conversion D/A. I've used the digital ins as well.

Jason, I can tell you that my experiences with the Layla were a big turn off when I first got giga and I was using the first driver support from echo for GSIF. I had the kind of ugly things going on that you have apparently experienced with Delta.

But Jason, let me reiterate ... I am not alone and I don't have just one system. I've got 5 workstations and 3 old workstations that are office machines now. I've used the Delta cards on all of them. I've got 6 1010s and I regularly work in 3 other rooms that are using the Deltas upon my suggestion.

1 of those rooms has a 44 and doesn't really do any recording (primarily mastering).

But both of the other rooms are recording lkke crazy with these cards every single day and with great success. 1 of these two is a guy that I call the demo king who turns out like 3 tracks a day and he's probably got more hours recording, mixing and mastering in Vegas with Deltas than anyone I know. He doesn't use anything else and they've worked flawlessly for him for years of service.

I've never experienced the level scenario that you descibed. As far as what I hear with my ears using Genelec 1031As, Event 2020s, JBL 4112s and Blue Sky in 5.1, I've found the D/A reproduction to very true and accurate and incredibly dynamic.

When I had analog years ago, I had a Trident 80C and I really loved the british mid range and how it captured a unique clarity .... and I find that same sort of sound using the Deltas.

But hey, I had many marshall stacks in my rock guitar days so.... there could definately be some damage there too .....lol....

I'm revisiting over the next couple of days and I'll give you a better summation when I look at Layla with latest drivers and an open mind. :)

SonyEPM wrote on 3/6/2004, 7:37 PM

Seconded, PCH.

If you want a pro-grade card with ZERO driver hassles, no freaky behaviors, no crashing, low latency, killer sound, etc etc just stick it in, install drivers, rock... anything made by Echo is your best bet for Sony/sofo apps. They ALWAYS work.

This is not a knock on any other brand- many have had success with a wide variety of boards/drivers and swear by them, great, continue.

Rednroll wrote on 3/7/2004, 3:22 PM

That's another good point SonicEPM, I have to say these are the easiest piece of hardware that I've ever installed in any of my systems. Driver updates are a breeze too. Simple as downloading it, and clicking on the executable file and they're installed, never had a problem or had to jump through any hoops of deinstall, then reinstall, their executable file does it all for you.

On my laptop, I hated to have to buy another product other than Echo, but they just didn't have what I needed at that time for my Laptop. I ended up having to get Sound Devices USBpre. The driver installation I had to jump through some hoops, and I had to install either the ASIO driver or the WAVE driver, I didn't have an option of both and being able to select which I wanted to use in Vegas, like I can with the Echo drivers. I also had to pick the right driver to install, if I was running either win98 or Win2k/XP. I guess the Echo drivers figures that out in their installer.

cosmo wrote on 3/7/2004, 9:24 PM

wow..that's running through hoops. My eyes are slowly opening...I have an M-audio delta 410(card version, not external)...only like the cheapest f'n soundcard in the 'prosumer' category. And I do in fact have those pops/clicks etc like the others that have posted here. I just bailed, turned to another app and blamed Vegas.

Now my eyes are opening...the phrase "you get what you pay for" comes to mind. When I upgraded from crap SB cards to my m-audio card, there was in fact a huge difference. The m-audio card plays great with Steinberg and Propellerhead apps, but not Sony. So why does that have to be Sony's fault? I'm asking myself this, by the way. I see it isn't Sony's fault at all - it's bad writing on the part of the m-audio team writing the drivers.

I'm glad Echo is what I was already looking at for my next upgrade...now it's a no brainer. The thought of going back to Vegas for all audio is a wonderful thought indeed...just keeping my fingers crossed for Rewire -)

MrPhil wrote on 3/8/2004, 8:12 AM

Hi!

This proved to be an extremely important, informative and nice thread. I was going for the the Delta cards for my system, they seemed to be a very good alternative with a humane pricing.
Now I probably will wait til I can get a Layla! So many good points and values has been laid out here in it's advantage, and I want to thank all that contributed their thoughts and experiences. This is Forum at its best!
Now I throw out a last question on the subject:

- Has anyone any info/experience on the ST Audio DSP2000 C-Port or ST Audio DSP3000 M-port together with Vegas?

tmrpro wrote on 3/8/2004, 2:59 PM

Guys...

I'm sorry... But I am personally not switching to the layla.

I spent about 3.5 hours testing last night and today. I tried my mia, my gina and my layla and I updated all the drivers.

I even put two matched speaker systems side by side for a sonic benchmark.

The echo stuff sounds small and whispy with a mediocre "at best" dynamic response.

Where the Deltas are fat, warm and present a very clear dynamic in the midrange. Far superior in sound quality to my ears.

Also, I use Sonar Producer in conjunction with GigaStudio as a rewire which requires the use of GSIF and ASIO at the same time. I've been doing this rewire without ever having a problem since it's been available.

As soon as I removed the Deltas and popped in the Layla, I played and listened with Vegas ....checked CPU, etc.

When I went to a rewire project in Sonar Producer & Giga, I pulled up a sequence that I was working on and the system locked up in the middle of the song.

I've NEVER had a failure with the Deltas using this system EVER. I tried loosening the buffers and as soon as my polyphony would get up to around 100 voices the system would crash. Everytime.

There were some files that I couldn't get to play at all that are using up to 160 voices.

This is precisely why my Layla has been in a cardboard box for the last year. If one of you guys wants my Layla, you can have it.... contact me at:

Contact

I popped the Deltas back in ....Voila! Back in business.

The only thing that I'm convinced about in this thread is that computers are a tough nut to crack. If it's working for you... keep using it.

Every single device in a system will affect its performance and software plays a big role in the mix too. Even the methods by which you install your programs and in what order can affect the system's performance.

If you had snaps and pops using the Deltas, changed to a Layla and got rid of the problems you were experiencing... then I would suggest to keep the Laylas rockin.

PipelineAudio wrote on 3/10/2004, 6:57 PM

this is weird, I remember that 3 year long thread on the SOS forums about all the nuttiness people were having with multiple 1010's and the pathetic responses from midiman, who have lied to me twice as well. But if its working for you tmr, then all is well, its handy and cheap.

For the echo stuff, maybe theyve got their drivers working, but unless they SERIOUSLY upgraded their converters as well, its a moot point as those things sound like crap

stakeoutstudios wrote on 3/11/2004, 1:27 AM

I don't understand how you can say the Echo's converters sound like crap! we're talking about the Layla 24? I do have a revised PCI card and 19" rackmount that's only been shipping since January....

But... I've done comparisons between the Echo, the Delta 1010, an Apogee Rosetta 800 and the RME ADI-8 pro.

I rated them in this order -

Apogee
Echo
RME
M-Audio

I tested them by recording a TAMA starclassic maple drumkit, with the same rig, only changing the converters. I didn't factor noise into that equation, just sound. I paid particular attentention to transient response, cymbal fades, detail, dynamic power, and width.

In terms of noise however, the quietest set were the apogees, closely followed by the RME and Echo. M-audio had substantially more noise. When the Apogee was used as a clock for other converters, the sound, especially width, of all the other converters improved noticeably.

Anyhow, the RME and Echo were pretty close, and leagues away from the Delta. I'll be getting the Apogee Rosetta 800 to hang another 8 channels off my Layla, and take the master clock from it as well. This way I get 16 channels, better clocking on the Echo, and get to use the stable Echo drivers to boot!

Jason

drbam wrote on 3/11/2004, 5:58 AM

Besides the driver issues with the maudio cards, when comparing the 1010 with the Layla, the 1010 lacks ADAT I/O. This is a complete show stopper for a lot of folks. Even if I *wanted* to get a 1010 (which I don't), lacking this basic fundamental feature would force me to choose something else.

drbam

drbam wrote on 3/11/2004, 6:17 AM

>>I tested them by recording a TAMA starclassic maple drumkit, with the same rig, only changing the converters. I didn't factor noise into that equation, just sound. I paid particular attentention to transient response, cymbal fades, detail, dynamic power, and width.<<

Jason: thanks for doing this and posting your observations. I'd really be interested in what your test would reveal with something more musically complete. Since tmpro was commenting on the 1010's from a mixing/playback perspective, perhaps you could also test playing a favorite CD track with a wide dynamic range (using Vegas) and report your findings. I really appreciate these kinds of threads. It pushes me to do more research and to stretch and deepen my listening abilities.

Thanks,

drbam

PipelineAudio wrote on 3/11/2004, 6:47 AM

I havent heard the layla 24, only the layla 20 and the gina 20. But after hearing those, and given the nature of the guys advertising the amazing sound quality of them, I figured I would never take Echo's word on anything related to sonics.

From what I heard on the 20's though I could see how even they might seem superior for drumkit miking. They had an angry, spitty sound to them like the Rode mics and Event speakers, and that could make for a very upfront and present sounding drumkit, especially the snares and cymbals. I wonder how theyd do on less angry vocals. If the new ones are that much better, it shure would make my life a whole lot easier, tho the stigma attached to them might bother the customers. What is the newer version of the echo console like?

drbam wrote on 3/11/2004, 6:58 AM

Pipe:

For me, moving from the Layla 20 to the 24 was anything but subtle! Virtually everything about them is better but the increased detail and openness is dramatic.

drbam

PipelineAudio wrote on 3/11/2004, 8:36 AM

then again the layla adat I/O has no provisions for 8 channels of 96k, which is pretty much all thats keeping me from at least giving the card a try