Change of Soundcard - Complete Stability!

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stakeoutstudios wrote on 3/12/2004, 1:13 AM
pipe, you're recording at 96K?! brave indeed! I record at 44.1khz 24bit, no plans to change for the immediate future so the ADAT optical isn't an issue yet... furthermore I plan to hook up firewire to the apogee and see what their drivers are like with MLAN firewire - then I could hook up a couple of Rosetta 800s.

I only had a day with all of the converters, so drums seemed like the best plan. I did also play numerous CDS through them, and certainly in the rock genre the results were the same as with the drums.

The setup was as follows:

Shure Beta 52 on kick into Manley Labs MP40 mic pre
Neumann KMS 105 on snare into Manley Labs MP40 mic pre
Audio Technica 4050 left overhead into Universal Audio 2-610 mic pre
Audio Technica 4050 right overhead into Universal Audio 2-610 mic pre
Shure Beta 57 on rack tom into behringer MX8000 (I know, sigh)
Shure Beta 58 on floor tom into behringer MX8000
Rode NTK room mic left into behringer MX8000
Rode NTK room mic right into behringer MX8000

The levels were kept the same, as was the drummer and the plugins on the workstation, although I did play to see how each recording responded to EQ and compression.

I kept the Layla24 and have been using it on sessions since. I've recorded the same band with the Layla and previously the the Delta1010 and the Layla sessions turned out much better overall.

Vocal-wise I've been exceptionally impressed, the converters don't seem to have the nasty fizzy top-end as with the Delta1010s, and are more open and clear.

I found I could comfortably use the Manley preamp over the UA 2-610, which is a choice I didn't make before. The Manley is a very open, true to life sounding preamp which sounded brittle recorded to the 1010 but very true sounding when recorded to the Layla. The UA 2-610 is a darker preamp which has a tendency to smooth the top end. A much more coloured sound which helped reduce the delta's sizzly treble. (I'm not suggesting that the delta EQ'd things, just that the top end sounds different)

The preamps are plugged directly into the A to D's with a split signal for monitoring sent via patch bay.
Drey wrote on 3/12/2004, 5:53 AM
If you're good with computers you will figure out how to get the drivers to work with whichever soundcard you go with. I've been using the Delta 1010 for five years, two different computer setups, and two OS's and have always managed to get the drivers to be problem free. On rare occasion the latest driver from M-Audio would cause me problems but I would revert back to an earlier version to solve it. M-Audio has not been thorough enough with testing their new drivers but as I said you can always go back to a previous working version.

webpuppy:

"M-audio had substantially more noise"

I'm not sure I agree with your above statement. When tracking line level sources the noise is down at -108dB. If I wear headphones, crank the headphone volume and main mix volume to full, and listen to just the noise floor of the Delta it's at the same volume as the noise floor of the mixer. I can still add 12dB of gain before even getting to the noise floor of a CD. That is pretty darn quiet!

The soundcards you compared to the Delta are all great cards, and I'm not knocking your preferences, but let's be fair in saying that all of these cards are ultra quiet. If you don't like the sound of the Delta's converters that's fine. Not everybody does.
drbam wrote on 3/12/2004, 6:29 AM
>>If you're good with computers you will figure out how to get the drivers to work with whichever soundcard you go with. I've been using the Delta 1010 for five years, two different computer setups, and two OS's and have always managed to get the drivers to be problem free. On rare occasion the latest driver from M-Audio would cause me problems but I would revert back to an earlier version to solve it. M-Audio has not been thorough enough with testing their new drivers but as I said you can always go back to a previous working version.<<

Well not everyone is "good with computers" and I for one am not interested in "work arounds" when a company clearly isn't motivated to fix their problems - this has been a long standing issue with maudio! This combined with maudio's unfriendly relationship toward SoFo/Sony (never taking responsibility for their defective drivers) puts me off of all maudio gear. A lot of folks enjoy tinkering and messing around with computers and other gear and obviously its satisfying when one can fix a problem or find a workaround for something so these kinds of things aren't really important to them. Personally, I'd rather be making music than troubleshooting buggy software. Bottom line: you shouldn't have to "go back to an older driver." This simply seems ridiculous to me.

Peace,

drbam
PipelineAudio wrote on 3/12/2004, 9:17 AM
In that crazy thread

http://sound-on-sound2.infopop.net/2/OpenTopic?q=Y&a=tpc&s=215094572&f=351097254&m=4693018185&p=4

it seems like the major problems with the 1010 was when you were using multiple units in one PC. I'd be interested in knowing if the people here who are having luck with these units are just using one. I imagine the other issue of unbalanced inputs being out of phase with the balanced ones for the most part escapes peoples' notice as they will probably have them all plugged in one way or the other.
stakeoutstudios wrote on 3/13/2004, 2:01 AM
The problem is I *am* good with computers. I have a very technical background and have been building and repairing machines for years. The simple fact is that no driver was stable. Believe me I tried every one in every possible combination with every tweak, and this includes replacing various bits of hardware to attempt to solve problems which never should have been there.

when I said 'substantially more noise' - the delta is not a noisy card in comparison to less pro cards, but in comparison to the others it came last in this field. And that's not including the pops and crackles.

I push the machine very hard - usually projects with 30 - 40 tracks every day, running four Universal Audio UAD1s to around 60-70% capacity, and the host CPU nearly topping out at mixdown aroun 97%. Perhaps the people who've had better luck don't push the systems in the same way.

I can now be at 40 tracks, have a near fully loaded system and do an overdub with another three or four tracks simulataneously if I want - glitch free. This was never previously possible.

Pipe: I did have two Deltas at one point, but the headaches were just too much - I sold one and the system ran slighty better, but still with tonnes of problems.

Jason
Drey wrote on 3/13/2004, 4:55 AM
drbam:

You're right. M-Audio sucks in the driver area. I just happened to get lucky with a combination that works on my system. M-Audio doesn't just blame So-Fo/Sony products, they also blame Cool Edit/Adobe Audition for bugs.

PipelineAudio:

My success with the Delta 1010 is based on having a single unit installed. Never tried a multiple Delta setup. I thought the out of phase thing happened when selecting the -10dBV switch for an input/output? I run the card at +4dBU with only balanced cables and have never encountered this problem, though I know it exists.

webpuppy:

I agree with you that one should not have to be a computer whiz to get these things to work properly, and I feel your pain for having to do so much trouble shooting in this area. I've been there before with other audio cards (Delta included) and wonder why the need for so much troubleshooting when all you want to do is plug in and go.

I can understand your need for a glitch free setup. You really do push your systems hard, and in that kind of scenario you don't have time to play around. Sorry if I came across as arrogant with my previous post. I have a lot of respect for what you're doing.

Still have to disagree with the noise thing. The Delta gives you 18-bits of clean signal. I know Apogees et al are even quieter (which is good), but a lot of pro gear out there is still in this relative noisefloor ballpark. Maybe 40 tracks summed together with this noise level on each track will be noticeable but I doubt you will hear it once you've dithered to 16-bit (if that's your destination format). Have you ever done a mix of just the noise floor of your soundcard tracked to 40 tracks? The noise is still way down there.
stakeoutstudios wrote on 3/14/2004, 2:03 AM
The noise floor on the Deltas is low, but not as low as others - with the quality of the preamps I use, when tracking acoustic guitar or especially quiet vocals, then compressing extremely hard, the noise floor does become apparent.

IMHO the other converters were marginially better in this respect.

Of course you have to have some pretty damn quiet preamps and mics for it to become a factor. I also have a very quiet recording space.

Two Audio-Technica 4050s through the Manley MP/40 on a fingerpicked acoustic for example.
drbam wrote on 3/14/2004, 6:41 AM
>>Two Audio-Technica 4050s through the Manley MP/40 on a fingerpicked acoustic for example.<<

;-) This comment made me smile. ANY noise would definitely be a factor, especially if you're using compression. I too have an extremely quiet space (DAW and console PS are in another room) and often record ethnic instruments (flutes, hand and finger percussion) and quiet vocals. The only relevant noise I have is generated by mics and pres – the Layla is a simply a non-issue in this regard.

drbam
stakeoutstudios wrote on 3/15/2004, 1:51 AM
Yeah I have my DAW locked in another room! keep that damn computer noise out! It's amazing what a little noise can become with compression!