Cinema Camera Judder

fr0sty wrote on 11/9/2016, 3:59 PM

I seem to be having judder issues with vegas and BMCC footage. The raw footage out of the camera looks fine, but is a stuttering mess when I render it out of vegas, even in scenes where the camera is not panning. I have the project set to 24p, as is the media (confirmed by checking the media settings) and the render settings when outputting. Here are video examples of what I am talking about. The only plugins I've enabled are vision color LUT on the master output effects, and levels and color correction on the track FX. 8 bit project.

raw:

rendered from Vegas Pro 14 Suite with color correction, levels, and VisionColor LUT plugin enabled:

Media file info:

General
Name: Blackmagic Cinema Camera_1_2016-10-06_1737_C0009.mov
Folder: D:\WTBA16
Type: MAGIX ProRes
Size: 587.41 MB (601,502,997 bytes)
Created: Sunday, November 06, 2016, 7:02:08 PM
Modified: Thursday, October 06, 2016, 5:37:18 PM
Accessed: Sunday, November 06, 2016, 7:02:08 PM
Attributes: Archive

Streams
Video: 00:00:26.958, 24.000 fps progressive, 1920x1080x32, ProRes
Audio: 00:00:26.958, 48,000 Hz, Stereo, AAC

ACID information
ACID chunk: no
Stretch chunk: no
Stretch list: no
Stretch info2: no
Beat markers: no
Detected beats: no

Other metadata
Regions/markers: no
Command markers: no

Media manager
Media tags: no

Plug-In
Name: mxhevcplug.dll
Folder: C:\Program Files\VEGAS\VEGAS Pro 14.0\FileIO Plug-Ins\mxhevcplug
Format: MAGIX ProRes
Version: Version 1.0 (Build 8532) 64-bit
Company: MAGIX Computer Products Intl. Co.

Help! It's ruined an otherwise great production!

Comments

set wrote on 11/9/2016, 4:45 PM

Try right click on the clip > Disable Resample?

fr0sty wrote on 11/9/2016, 4:49 PM

I did try to disable resample from the project settings, I'll try it at the clip level...

fr0sty wrote on 11/9/2016, 4:56 PM

Disable resample did nothing... I even disabled the vision color LUT plugin, still nothing.

set wrote on 11/9/2016, 5:02 PM

You make the clip's rate slower isn't it? What speed do you adjust it to ?

fr0sty wrote on 11/9/2016, 5:07 PM

The clip velocity envelope is not enabled, and the playback rate of the project is normal (1.00). The clip should be playing back at normal speed. It just looks like it's coming in a 12fps instead of 24.

fr0sty wrote on 11/9/2016, 5:09 PM

It isn't just that one clip, either, every shot in the entire video is like that.

set wrote on 11/9/2016, 5:14 PM

I remember I need to uncheck / disable one setting...

If I'm not mistaken, probably this one:

File>Project Properties>

uncheck "Adjust source media to better match project or render settings"

If that's not the solution... I need to find my archive... I remember asking this many times ago.

set wrote on 11/9/2016, 5:16 PM

Update: Here's my previous post:

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/strange-render-issue-got-15p-frame-rate--100463/

The solution for fr0sty's trouble:

UNcheck the "Allow source to adjust frame rate" on the Internet presets (whether it is Mainconcept AVC or Sony AVC.

fr0sty wrote on 11/9/2016, 5:17 PM

Unfortunately that doesn't seem to have helped either.

set wrote on 11/9/2016, 5:28 PM

UNcheck the "Allow source to adjust frame rate" on the Render internet presets doesn't help?

Looks like need to experiment... Is it possible for you to share this raw ProRes shot to us (or make one with a lot of panning) ? Probably anyone here can try experiment...

Also, it seems you are using true 24p instead of 23.976p - not sure if that's an issue (as I personally only work in 25p environment).

Your target is also true 24p instead 23.976p, correct? What output format do you rendering to?

fr0sty wrote on 11/9/2016, 6:08 PM

Sure, here's the file (one of many in the project, it was a pan that showed the judder well): http://azaleamanormobile.com/bmcctest/Blackmagic%20Cinema%20Camera_1_2016-10-06_1737_C0009.mov

Here's the project file: http://azaleamanormobile.com/bmcctest/Untitled.veg

Here's the LUT if you want to exactly match my project: http://azaleamanormobile.com/bmcctest/IWLTBAP%20Arapaho%20-%20Standard.cube

I was rendering to 24 fps HEVC as well as Main Concept AVC Internet HD 1080p preset with frame rate set to 24. Both produced the judder.

JJKizak wrote on 11/9/2016, 6:44 PM

I don't know if this means anything but my crummy online very 10 year old junky system sees the same judder in the raw video as the V14 video. I would say V14 is doing a good job on what is there to begin with.

JJK

set wrote on 11/9/2016, 7:19 PM

hmmm - I'm afraid VP14's ProRes plugin has serious bug while reading this file 24p format... because even playing back on VP14, I can achieve full 24 speed (while in VP13 - I only able to achieve around 14fps). And I can confirm that rendering output from VP13 is smooth, but from VP14 I get serious judder...

Let me try experiment further... - I'll report to Madison team too.

Screencapture from VegasPro editor:

Test render from VP13:

ADD: I try render it slomo:

VP13 :

VP14 :

Will try find an alternate workflow for this... What I can think is to convert whole 24p stock footage to other format - stay away from using mxhevcplug.dll plugin.

*I can't convert this using Catalyst Browse... no similar template 1920x1080-TRUE 24p there!

Former user wrote on 11/9/2016, 8:22 PM

Using Vegas 12 for comparison, rendered to MP4 and uploaded to youtube.

set wrote on 11/9/2016, 8:32 PM

Currently I'm unable to think any simple alternative solution (except temporary don't use VP14) to overcome this issue while try keeping the BMCC ProRes recording quality and true 24p speed. (not sure if there are any complications converting from 24p to 23.976 ?!)

But I have notified the Madison team regarding this issue.

I welcome other forum member's quick suggestion for this issue while waiting for any fixes available on the future update.

Former user wrote on 11/9/2016, 9:20 PM

If you don't have access to another version, you could use QT Pro to convert to uncompressed alternate codec.

NickHope wrote on 11/9/2016, 11:28 PM

I haven't tested your case myself yet but a workaround is to rename the folder C:\Program Files\VEGAS\VEGAS Pro 14.0\FileIO Plug-Ins\mxhevcplug to C:\Program Files\VEGAS\VEGAS Pro 14.0\FileIO Plug-Ins\mxhevcplugRENAMED This will prevent Vegas finding the codec and it will default to Quicktime, if you have it installed. This should give a better result than transcoding the footage.

Note that this will also disable reading and rendering with HEVC.

fr0sty wrote on 11/9/2016, 11:32 PM

That's fine, if I can get this one render out the door I can rename the folder back when done. I don't often shoot with BMCC's, so I likely won't need to do this again until after the bug has been patched. I'm just glad to know that the devs know about it. Thanks for the help, everyone.

GJeffrey wrote on 11/9/2016, 11:58 PM

Another workaround until this is fixed is to convert your files to 23.976fps with ffmpeg.

This is very quick (around 15s for your sample file) and you will avoid any decoding issue with prores files on VP13 (and VP14 if you use Nick Hope method).

NickHope wrote on 11/10/2016, 12:43 AM

I confirm the issue with your file. Plays back incorrectly in VP14.189. Plays back correctly (using Quicktime) in VP13.453. Glad you got it sorted. You should probably remove the link to the LUT for copyright reasons, and it doesn't seem to be necessary for the issue at hand.

Cosmin_Gurau wrote on 11/10/2016, 1:00 AM

I have noticed this problem too (and others - like gamma/exposure differences) while working with BMPC 4K in various framerates/resolutions. I have sent a detailed report on this along with sample files to MAGIX. Now I hope this forum post will attract additional attention to the issue, and ultimately help fix it. I myself am still using VEGAS 13 for production work because of this and other issues. It is in MAGIX's best interest to release a stable, production-ready version of VEGAS 14 as soon as possible. They do seem to be willing to, and I think they are trying, that much is clear (and it's wonderful - let's not forget how SONY was treating everything). Let's hope they are also able to. Fingers crossed & god speed, boys.

NickHope wrote on 11/10/2016, 1:08 AM

This problem does appear to be limited to 24.000p footage. On this page the samples "8 & 16mm DPX sequence" and "Red Cameras" demonstrate the problem but other 23.976, 25 and 30p files do not. Every 3rd frame in the 24p files is static in VP14.

@GJeffrey Do you know an ffmpeg command line that will work for 24>23.976 conversion in this case? This indicates it's not simple and other search results advise vastly differing methods.

GJeffrey wrote on 11/10/2016, 1:28 AM

@GJeffrey Do you know an ffmpeg command line that will work for 24>23.976 conversion in this case? This indicates it's not simple and other search results advise vastly differing methods.

I actually reencode to prores while changing the frame rate, audio pass through. No visible quality difference after reencoding.

I also notice that the audio of the original clip is detected as AAC by VP14 but PCM by MediaInfo. I guess MediaInfo is right but not sure.

NickHope wrote on 11/10/2016, 2:10 AM

I also notice that the audio of the original clip is detected as AAC by VP14 but PCM by MediaInfo. I guess MediaInfo is right but not sure.

Me too. We need to demux to find out. But how?

fr0sty, what audio format did you shoot? AAC or PCM?

This is relevant to this thread, where is was speculated that 24-bit LPCM audio in a ProRes file cannot be opened in VP14. If fr0sty's audio is really 24-bit LPCM then is indicates that the problem in that other thread was actually the (reported) 16 channels (vs fr0sty's 2 channels).