Does anyone use Boris (that didn't use it before)?

johnmeyer wrote on 5/5/2004, 2:52 PM
I just got around to installing the Boris LTD application that came with 5.0. Vegas 5.0 continues to have terrible titling capability, and so I was hoping this would provide some help.

I am sure that Boris, both this limited version and the full-fledged version, is a fantastic product, but the learning curve looks pretty steep, and I am not tempted to proceed. I might add that I have spent twenty-five years in the software business and I am therefore quite comfortable with complicated software. I therefore am sure that I could learn this program. But, it will be a lot of time, and it doesn't look easy.

Which brings me to my question: Is anyone actually using the Boris LTD program for real work? I only am interested in those that never used Boris before and are only using the program that came with Vegas 5.0. I am in no way knocking Boris, other than to say that it is a completely different program from Vegas and has very few user interface ideas in common

My contention is that virtually no one who didn't already use Boris is going to be able to get over the learning curve, and absolutely no one that already owns Boris will have any use for this "junior" version. In short, my message to Sony is that Vegas still lacks decent titling capability, and this marketing inspired band-aid does not in any way satisfy the VERY important need for better titling.

I would strongly suggest that Sony add their own titling enhancements in a future release.

Comments

biggles wrote on 5/5/2004, 3:17 PM
I would have to agree 100%

(1)I hadn't considered Boris before upgrading to V5, and after a brief look (including downloading and printing parts of the doco - a daunting task in itself) I'm convinced that the learning curve is way too steep for me and I too have spent 20 plus years in the business. Though I have to confess I've only been using NLE's for about 5 of those.

(2)I agree that titling in Vegas is hard work - I know it can be done as I've looked at lots of the files on the SunDance site - it just seems like a lot of hard work and lots of tweaking to get the first 10 seconds orso 'just right'. Yes, i know that sets the scene for all that follows, but it just seems harder than it possibly could be, given all of the 'smarts' elsewhere in the software.

I agree that Sony need to '...add their own titling enhancements in a future release.'
Express wrote on 5/5/2004, 3:20 PM
I have used it for a couple of tests, and the user interface is strange indeed.

I think it is ok, but I am seriously considering BluffTitler.
http://www.outerspace-software.com/blufftitler.html

I downloaded it last night, and tried it out - the user inface is pretty sparse, and takes only a few minutes to get familiar with.

The demo version has the features you need to use to get familiar with it, and see what it can do (it can do quite a bit).

Before I spend the $40 on BluffTitler, I was going to give Boris another chance, and see.

With Boris, if I just make static titles, and 'animate' them with Vegas, I already have the knowledge to do that - I'm just not sure that I like the font and looks enough to use it.
JakeHannam wrote on 5/5/2004, 3:32 PM
In my view, titling is one of the weakest points in Vegas (any version).

Even Adobe Premiere included a decent titler (full featured) with Pinnacle TitleDeko.
p@mast3rs wrote on 5/5/2004, 4:03 PM
BluffTitler looks like a bad ass program. Just viewing some of the animations and I am very very impressed with them.
Caruso wrote on 5/5/2004, 4:03 PM
I have downloaded the Boris that came with V5 - but haven't used it yet.

I have few complaints with Vegas' generator for static text - it seems easy enough, but for rolling credits, although the interface isn't hard to learn, it's very clunky, what with having to choose between Title Text, Subitem Text, Right/left item, etc.

Worse still, the rendered output doesn't scroll smoothly - no matter what I do with forced resample.

For scrolling text, I still go back to Pinnacle Studio 7. It's nice that Vegas includes the option to ignore 3rd party codecs - that allows Studio 7 to coexist with Vegas without goofing it up (a problem I used to have in VV2).

I'm anxious to try Borris (and don't care really how difficult it may be to learn), but, right now, I'm involved in pushing out three projects and have to stick with what works.

V5 has worked flawlessly for me on these projects (as has V4 and VV3 before it).

Other than its Titledeiko, I have no use for Studio 7 (not even for down and dirty projects). But that titling ap is more like using a word processor - a real snap to use, and the results are very good.

Let you know my impression of Boris when I've had a chance to give it a fair run.

Caruso
fmc wrote on 5/5/2004, 5:40 PM
johnmeyer:

You are correct. A steep learning curve indeed. I purchased the full 3.0 version - the full version is with 5.0 and you use the same serial no. from LTD with the purchased of 3.0. Manual is 678 pages long.
In my situation I could not have both programs installed. Tech support did verify this and I uninstalled LTD - then things seem to be fine.
But, 3.0 will do a lot on the character/word level as well as most other functions: lights, camera and action. I'm still learning!!

Jerry Bryant
JohnnyRoy wrote on 5/5/2004, 6:01 PM
> Even Adobe Premiere included a decent titler (full featured) with Pinnacle TitleDeko.

And Vegas 5 includes Boris Graffiti 3.0 LTD, which is a VERY decent titler IMHO. The learning curve to do what Title Deko does is not that steep. So YES, I use Boris Graffiti LTD and I didn’t use it before. I think its better than Title Deko. More confusing at first, but way better in the end.

Take the time to go through the first tutorial. You can’t add a backdrop to the text (the feature is not included) but you will get a good idea of how to create great looking text with bevels and borders and gradient fills and it even comes with a set of text styles that look a lot like the styles that come with Title Deko. Just open the Library Browser, add a style you like and change the default text to whatever you want and you have an instant title.

Yes it looks overwhelming at first but most of the features are missing anyway. It still does nice animated titles and you can always use it to just to make still titles and animate them in Vegas 5. I spent maybe a 1/2 hour with it and I had some pretty nice titles. Give it a chance to grow on you. The timeline is pretty straightforward. Now I know where Satish got his Wax UI design from. It looks just like Boris and so I’m familiar with it from playing with Wax. ;-)

~jr
PeterWright wrote on 5/5/2004, 6:16 PM
I haven't even looked at Graffiti - I tried the demo version of Red GL a few months back .... but soon gave up, so I certainly agree regarding the learning curve there.

I don't agree that the Vegas titler is as bad as many think, though.

Firstly, even with straightforward single colour text with or without outlines or shadows, it looks fine. Is there a specific property that is missing for many?

Now, by using the text generator as a key with textures / video / whatever you want underneath, an incredible range of looks is possible. Then playing with bump maps etc, it goes on and on .....
kentwolf wrote on 5/5/2004, 7:35 PM
I use Graffiti 3.0 (full version) and it is generally agreed that the interface stinks. It's awful.

It is extremely full featured though and does just about everything you could possibly want to do with titles, in my opinion.

Seeing their flagship product, Red, is based on the exact same interface, I doubt that they'll be ditching it anytime soon.

Then they would be leaving their Red customers out in the cold, so to speak.

So, while the Graffiti interface leaves much to be desired, that just may be "the cost of doing business."

If a program had the functionality of Graffiti and the usability of Vegas, that would be an unbeatable combination.
StormMarc wrote on 5/5/2004, 7:44 PM
After using the titler in Premiere 6.5 (which has been improved upon I hear in the next release) the Vegas titler is sorely lacking. Anyone who says otherwise has not used it. I was very surprised Sony did not make at least some basic improvements like allowing a larger work area and seeing the video in the background of your work area, kerning control etc.

The main problem I have with Boris is that you have to leave the program everytime to want to see a change. Adobe titler changes in realtime. I wonder what's up with the Vegas plugin structure that does not allow plugins to view changes as they are made.

Marc
Caruso wrote on 5/5/2004, 8:35 PM
StormMarc:
No doubt you are aware that you can hover your timeline cursor over the point where you are inserting your generated text and watch updates in the video preview window as they occur.

I've never used Priemere, so don't know how it differs.

Studio 7's layout is more like a page with safe area outlines. You simply type in what you want, format as desired, then close that window. It's certainly not live (that whole arrangements with pop-up windows annoyed me with S7), and, while very useful and easy to use, I don't know how S7's implementation of TitleDieko compares with the real thing (I'm guessing S7's (or whatever number "S" is up to by now) is a light version).

I agree with a previous poster who stated that Vegas titling isn't so awful if you are keeping things relatively simple (which I do most of the time).

I actually unzipped and installed Boris this evening while one of my projects was rendering. Opened the PDF manual and pretty much fell asleep reading it. Either the manual was boring or I should have skipped that third beer. My project is finished, so's the beer, and I've dozed in the interim, so, I'll give that manual another look.

Caruso
johnmeyer wrote on 5/5/2004, 10:41 PM
I really appreciate all the comments. I thought maybe I was "losing my touch" when the Boris interface didn't immediately make any sense.

My background was desktop publishing (do a search on "John Meyer Ventura Publisher" in Google), and I am absolutely certain that text creation, including keyframing and 3D effects, doesn't need to be so convoluted. As already mentioned TitleDekko, while not as flexible as Boris, is far better than Vegas' titling, and does 90% of what I need, most of the time. However, I refuse to go back to Pinnacle Studio (which is where I first used TitleDekko).
randyvild2 wrote on 5/6/2004, 1:16 AM
We are now in 2004.....user enemy software is not the way to go! It's like they try to make it difficult on purpose so they feel they have a secret code.
If the original Donkey Kong was user enemy then there would be No Mario Brothers today. The fact is the creators of BORIS can make it USER FRIENDLY but they would have to get the engineers from the late Sonic Foundry and pay them more...but in the end, their product would soar like NINTENDO did.
I bought Boris Red 2 months ago (did not know about VEG 5 having Boris) mostly because of titling and to this day I just make a font 3d or 2d then export it, make it a jpeg then go back to the best software on earth VEGAS.

Randini
DGates wrote on 5/6/2004, 1:59 AM
Bluff titler is no different than Ulead's Cool 3D or any other cheesy text program. Yeah, I really want my text to explode or tumble towards me.

While Vegas' titler isn't full-featured, it does simple text real well. And unless you're a video newbie, simple text is usually the best. You can spot the amatuer real quick with chessy transitions and over-blown text style.
Grazie wrote on 5/6/2004, 4:29 AM
Kentwolf - "If a program had the functionality of Graffiti and the usability of Vegas, that would be an unbeatable combination.
" - Oh yessir!!

Against all my chums advice here I bought Boris Graf 3.0 - full monty . . . I've struggled . . I've made a nusance of meself over on the Boris sites . . As far as I can gather most people DON'T use it as a plugin . .they use it as the standalone . do what they want and then bring it back into Vegas -If I'm wrong, then please tell me and I'll apologize, regroup my thoughts on it and persevere . . . But, having got to the "other" side of 50, time is running out! . . . I jst wish some s/w developers would get emabarrased enough to look at their house and think "Hmm.. yer know what chaps? Perhaps we COULD do better . ." here's hoping . . Bottom line Guys 'n Gals - working with Vegas, we are real spoit for a usable, friendly, sexy and do-able GUI . . am I right or am I right?

Boris Graf3.0? Reminds me how good software can be . . prove me wrong and I'll have another go . .

Best regards,

Grazie
JonnyMac wrote on 5/6/2004, 5:02 AM
Isn't what Sony has done with Boris the same thing as what Adobe did with TitleDeko?....
Jay Gladwell wrote on 5/6/2004, 7:54 AM
Agreed, I took a look at the LTD app for about 20 minutes--got nowhere with it. Closed it out and haven't been back to it since I got it on the 19th of April.

So far, my (clients) titling needs have been rather basic and straight forward. Therefore, I don't see why so many people are down on titling in Vegas. Granted, if you're trying to do the "fine print" like in those car commercials on t.v., you can forget it. Beyond, I don't really understand all the commotion.

J--
logiquem wrote on 5/6/2004, 8:11 AM
Like many others ,i don't care myself for extruded, spinning and shining texts effects... (or "fantastics" gonzo 3D transitions...).

Mayby Sony should just improve the titling box in such a way that we would'nt have to cycle thru 4 tabs to make basic settings?...

Ok, i would also tolerate gradient color filling and rotation...to please weeding video guys... :-)
stormstereo wrote on 5/6/2004, 8:27 AM
Yes, tried the Red 3GL demo a while back. Went through the first few tutorials but I still feel as stupid as when I first laid eyes on it. And I too have some experience with big boy software such as Digital Fusion (and I'm pretty good with it).
Boris just released a new training DVD. I think they sweep in a lot of money with these educational tools. You can also attend training classes worldwide which cost a bunch.

I gave up but I think I'll give it another go when I have the time.

Best/Tommy
johnmeyer wrote on 5/6/2004, 10:10 AM
Several people have mentioned that Vegas' titling is adequate for their needs. I agree that you can in fact create some amazing titles. Anyone who doubts this should click on over to the Sundance site at download some of the title VEG files.

However, how long would it take YOU to create one of these effects, assuming you had visualized what you wanted, but didn't have a Sundance VEG file in front of you to show you the way? More to the point, how long does it take a mere mortal (like me) to just create even a simple, normal title? logiquem said it well in his post: "Mayby Sony should just improve the titling box in such a way that we would'nt have to cycle thru 4 tabs to make basic settings?"

I am tempted to hijack my own thread and start talking about what should or should not be in the Vegas title generator, but that has already been done many times, and a re-hash of that subject should probably wait until the dust clears from the version 5.0 launch and the engineers are finished with the inevitable bug fixing and cleanup and are ready to think about new features for a future release.
Express wrote on 5/6/2004, 11:22 AM
DGates,
I agree, cheesy titles are a disgrace.
Cheesy titles can be created in most any editor.

BluffTitler makes it easy to create attractive or hideous looks - cheesiness is up to the editor.

Personally, I don't often use animation in my titles - if I 'animate', I do it though simple effects in the NLE - and for the most part I have used TitleDeko to make some nice looking titles - Vegas' titler does not cut it for some titles.

Boris has some nice looks (and some cheesy ones!), and I have found my way around it enough to do some nice things with it (getting the font looks in the style editor makes the application much more usuable- but it does not come that way out of the box).
But if Boris can make the same 3D, attractive titles that BluffTitler can, it is MUCH more difficult to achieve.
I have not looked at a manual for either product - but I can do pretty much what I want with Bluff - without cracking a manual - kinda like using Vegas.

But that is not to say that I will buy BluffTitler - I am going to give Boris a few weeks. But I could make cheesy titles with Boris too - if that were my disposition.

While Vegas' titler isn't full-featured, it does simple text real well. And unless you're a video newbie, simple text is usually the best. You can spot the amatuer real quick with chessy transitions and over-blown text style.

I dont disagree that cheesy titles are the sign of an amatuer, but interesting titles are another matter. I have been taking notice of the titles that I see in Hollywood productions, and national broadcasts - they are not cheesy, but they are interesting, and eye-catching. Often sculpted, beveled, attactive colors, and 3D.

I can't determine what you and your audience likes to see - but my audience is is much more likely to see a multi-media presentation rather than overhead transparencies - in education and the work-place.

My audience expects a little more color and depth than in times past.

Examples of Hollywood titles can be found on the posters listed on the Internet Movie Database

Color/depth/shading/lighting by themselves do not make a title cheesy.
If used properly (and limited use), they can add a great deal of professionalism to the project.

Chris
kentwolf wrote on 5/6/2004, 11:32 AM
>>...most people DON'T use it as a plugin...
>>...If I'm wrong, then please tell me and I'll apologize, regroup my
>>thoughts on it and persevere...

*I* use it as a plugin. :)

Usually, I make static text with it, however, there are times when their animated titles are appropriate.

It really does have some very nice styles!

I'll tell you what, I sure am glad it has a lot of presets! If it didn't, it would be hard to get anything out of it.

Oh......and in case no one else mentioned it before...the interface is awful!
Express wrote on 5/6/2004, 11:41 AM
Kentwolf,

You are using the 3 LTD version as a plug-in, correct?

I have not researched it, so forgive me if I'm just missing something simple:

Did you have to make any configuration adjustments to get Boris to work as a plug-in?

Thanks,

Chris
SonyEPM wrote on 5/6/2004, 11:55 AM
Grafitti ltd is pretty deep, and ok the UI is "different" but to be fair, people say that about Vegas when they first try it, and then they start exploring and trying different things and learning how to use the tool and then...you know the rest. So give it a chance- I think it'll grow on you.

As for me, I use the Graffiti LTD standlone when I need precise kerning of individual letters in a static title, plus it also has some cool type on fx which I use from time to time. For the really wild text animations I typically use FlashMX. For bread and butter text, I just use the Vegas titler. Lots of text options now- you can do pretty much anything.