I truly don't make many DVD's anymore - if a commercial client needs one, I shoot source as 1080 60i for them.

On the other hand, I have been making Blu-ray for almost all clients exclusively for the past 3 years from source 1080 60i most of the time.

For "film" looks on more personal projects I can make 24P Blu-ray from 24P sources- which looks very good in its own way. I don't think it conveys better "quality", just a different look. If I want that look - I shall make the effort to do this - otherwise I don't see it as driven by much purpose.

@videoITguy:

I work as the videography on a liveaboard scuba diving boat. Virtually every one of my guests has a DVD player and HDTV, but very few say they have a Blu-ray player! So I am always keen on the best way to down-rez from HD to SD for delivery on DVD.

Many of my guests are now asking for files so they can play the trip video on their mobile devices. I haven't found a good way to address this. If I deliver a file on board, I run the risk of the guests then passing it around and I don't get paid for the extra copies : ( . Of course there no guarantees they won't rip the DVD and do the same, but at least they have to do the work themselves

I shoot in 24p, edit 24p, and burn 24p DVDs and Blu-rays. I never leave 24p.

Since I shoot in HDV, my workflow takes footage in an intermediate through VirtualDub for the HD->SD downrez, then back into Vegas for the compression to MPEG-2. Still, all in 24p.

More specifically, I render from a DVD Architect compatible 24p template for DVD. DVD-A ingests just fine.

I deliver about as many Blu-rays as I do DVD's.

@vtx:

What are your project propeties in DVD-A?

Why do you prefer to run your 24p footage through VirtualDub instead of putting it right on the timeline? Is it to get a better resize from VirtualDub than Vegas creates when it down-rezzes using the DVD-A 24p template?

Are you resizing with VirtualDub alone, or in combination with AviSynth? I have both VD and AS (hmmm, now that sounds weird) but I don't have much of a clue how to use them.

Regards,

Kimberly

To Kimberly - of your post back to me 9/16/2012 9:58 AM -above.

I appreciate what you are suggesting about your client and your particular business model. There are many issues to consider.
I would not be here to suggest what YOU individually should do - but I hear you are hinting at some concerns that are going to creep into your business as you try to move forward and obligate yourself to every customer's wishes to get their hands on easy transfer to mobile devices. Extra copies and revenue from them should not be the source of your concern however. But simply copying in whole or in part the results of your delivered authorship is definitely a concern for you. For my business model - the revenue comes from a single fee for all services rendered. If I make hundreds of copies those are costed in that single fee.

When I faced my clients and potential clients three years ago, very few had Blu-ray in service- today all have access to Blu-ray.
Benefits from this flow of the production include - Highest deliverable quality - I aim for "cinema" look, multi-angle, multi-soundtrack, subtitles, deep menus, etc. AND guess what - least likely chance of copy outside my own controls by client population.

@Kimberly:

1. In DVD-A, the relevant video properties are 720x480 at 29.97 (NTSC). DVD-A knows how to take 24p source material and cook it into DVD-compliant 29.97. (Sorry, I can't explain this any better because I really can't.) The results look wonderful.

2. I down-rez in VirtualDub alone. VD gets you access to the superior Lanczos re-sizing algorithm. Vegas does not have this. I have not rigorously performed a head-to-head resizing algorithm comparison, but I can assure that you this forum and others overwhelmingly attest to this workflow for eeking out the best quality for HD->SD. In general, here is how it works:
a. Edit your HD source in Vegas.
b. Render to HD avi codec of choice (must be avi; I use Cineform).
c. Ingest rendered avi into VD, apply resize filter, input desired size.
d. Render from VD to new SD avi in codec of choice (again, I use Cineform).
e. Place downrezzed (SD) avi onto new Vegas timeline. Render to DVD-A compliant MPEG-2.
f. SPECIAL SAUCE: just before the render in (e), apply Sony sharpen to the entire video event (your massive SD avi) with the VALUE SET TO ZERO. Though zero, the FX will sharpen just slightly, maybe even too much. But the rendered MPEG-2 looks nicely crisp, not video-ish. If that is too sharp, try unsharp mask instead set to a low value. This is like adding cayenne pepper: just a sniff will do, and ABSOLUTELY nothing more.

Once you do this a few times, it becomes quite mechanical. Yes, it's a few extra steps, but the results are terrific and I don't argue with success. (One time, a friend was viewing one of my DVD's and asked if it was Blu-ray; sure, my player up-sampled for my 52" flat screen, but still the source disc was so good that it made for wonderful results.) If you can use Vegas, you can use VD in your sleep. It is quite intuitive.

DVD Video is 720x576 50i, and 720x480 59.94i only.
That's so it will play on conventional PAL and NTSC tubes, respectively.

Everything else must be telecined (aka pulldown) for analog playback.
Hard telecine means adding fields and frames to the video to achieve the final frame rate.
Soft telecine means sending the player flags so it will correct the frame rate internally.

As long as there are CRT screens in use, 24p or 30p without telecine will not be part of the spec. Neither will 48p, 50p, or 60p.

Hi Kimberly this might be of some help to your question.

From what I understand sd DVD players are only capable of playing  60i  30p or 24p they can not play 60p. When rendering out with main concept mpeg2 you can render any one of these 3 formats for your DVD.

Once you have your main concept mpeg2 rendered out in the frame rate you selected bring it in to dvd architect. DVD architect will automatically burn it at the frame rate you made with main concept mpeg2 even though DVD-A only has 29.97 pay no attention to it you will get a 30p or 24p DVD with out any re-rendering from DVD-A.

Jerry K

As far as 30p or 24p NTSC not playing back correctly on a analog tube TV I have read that DVD players today will add interlace to the analog outputs when playing a progressive DVD. Can any one confirm this.

Jerry K

You can convert a 30p video to 60i using Vegas such that the two fields of the 60i frame are actually the same as the 30p frame. It is just a flag change. From then on every piece of software or hardware thinks that it is dealing with 60i. You won't get the smooth motion of 60 fields per second, however, because it is still the original 30 frames per second.

Musicvid has summed it up nicely. The player doesn't add anything. It doesn't matter if your p footage is viewed as interlaced, since both fields have been captured at the same time. Like Peter said (and I don't know how his post got in ahead of mine), it only matters if you do a field to frame conversion.

Of course, having flagged 30p as 60i, the player may try to deinterlace it. One way to deinterlace is to discard one field and interpolate the missing lines from the other field. You will then suffer a quality loss, so you should turn deinterlace off if you can.

"Oh what a tangled web we weave, When first we practise to deceive!" Sir Walter Scott

Peter duke you hit the nail on the head. Check this out.

I take my 1080 60i avchd footage edit it with Sony Vegas Pro when completing my edit I do not yet render it out I save the project and then close out of this timeline and open a new timeline. I then nest the project and render it out to mainconcept mpeg2 29.97fps interlace. Believe it or not by nesting the project it eliminates the the lower fields and only uses the upper fields. The final render comes out to be a720x480 60i but it is really 30p in a 60i container. The best part of this is the video looks much sharper with out all the artifacts you get with interlace video. The only down side is 30p has some choppiness when panning.

Jerry K

DVD's... there are people who actually still make them?

I can't see any reason why people are settling for second-rate video on a burned-DVD. You can have first-class authoring in Blu-ray with context menus, deep menus, and in-fact more features in all than you will ever ever need.

The only thing that I use DVD media for these days is occasional DVD-ROM compilations where data access is very easy. Even though, NOW that remains a poor quality option, because you can load much more data on a hybrid Blu-ray/BD-ROM disc. Some people are looking to deliver Blu-ray and DVD simultaneously which you can also do with a Blu-ray hybrid disc. DVD video is old school.

I still make far more DVDs than blurays. I only know a handful of people that have them. Most who want HiDef have gone to media players.

Dave T2

As long as there are CRT screens in use, 24p or 30p without telecine will not be part of the spec. Neither will 48p, 50p, or 60p.

I have the last CRT screen on earth. I'm sure of it : )

Only 25% of my clients have a blu-ray players. The richer the client the more likely they will not have a blu-ray player or even know what it is.

The real discussion is DVDs not blu-ray.

Jerry K

So Kimberly are you saying a 30p or 24p will not play on your analog TV?

Jerry K

Everything plays on the Sony Blu-ray player which is hooked to Ye Old Tube TV. And it all looks good to really good, depending on the footage and project properties.

As I mentioned earlier, most of my customers have HDTVs and DVD players (go figure since BD players are so affordable). I have not yet replace YOTTV with an HDTV, so I must go to a friend or family member's house to quality test my DVDs. I suppose I should just buy an HDTV and get it over with.

But I was being silly in saying that I'm sure I'm the only person left with a CRT -- althought I bet there aren't many of us remaining!

I'm still selling a steady trickle of DVDs. My source footage for them is SD PAL DV. For years I was selling both 50i and 60i (converted in Procoder) depending on the customer's location but that was a pain. Since I worked out a better PAL>NTSC conversion technique I've re-converted one of my DVDs to NTSC and have started stocking only that and sending it to both PAL and NTSC countries. I'm about to do the same with the other one. By the end of the year I hope to have passed them both to Createspace to manufacture instead of burning at home. So it's 60i for me.

@vtxrocketeer

I have been following this thread and became interested in your workflow that you listed about using cineform. So I have a couple of questions for you.

1- Where can cineform be download from?

2- Is this a vegas plugin or separate program?

Thanks for your reply.