It does kind of beg the question of what those redundant streams are doing in there in the first place. Apart from them causing compatibility problems they've got to be a waste of space.

Bob.

So, is this fix that we've been wondering about ,why the DVDs don't work universally? I only burn with DVDA and every now and then I get incompatabilty problems. OR is this just an LG fix?

Jeffery

Well obviously it's hard to be certain however assuming it's an issue with the chipsets in the LGs it's pretty common for the same chips to be used by more than one manufacturer or in more than one model. So yes fixing the problem could well cure issues in other players. Undoubtly many of the problems I / you've had are due to players just past their use by date so no matter how perfectly a DVD +/-R is authored and burnt some of the older players are going to have issues. In that case thankfully it means they're at the end of their life and will be replaced.

Quite apart from anything to do with compatibility what are unreferenced streams doing on DVDs from DVDA when it seems no other authoring app needs or creates them?

And here's the other thing. I don't know about anyone else but a simple take a video and author it to a DVD isn't the highest paying gig in town, quite possibly under $100. So the client sends that DVD to a replicator and runs off a few thousand copies and then finds the DVDs will not play on some players. Who's he going to come after to cover his costs? Who is going to cover our butts?

Bob.

Pretty interesting. When the instructions for using the freeware say:" load your DVD" what does this mean? I haven't downloaded the software. Is this an adjustment to the DVD or to the file prepared for burning?

Must admit I haven't had a chance to try it myself.
Just rebuilding one of my Vegas PCs after a HDD crash (again), that'll teach me to use a drive I knew was suspect.

I assume you prepare the DVD and then that software can rip streams out of the mpeg. Once you've done that then you burn the files to DVD as per usual.

There's a heap of things the tool seems to be able to do but I think you'd need to spend some time reading the documentation, I only had a quick look last night before downloading it.

Bob.

The DVD structure is fairly complex. In a former life I used to work with ISO standards, and I can tell you that those standards were extremely complex and it was very easy to create software that could claim to implement the standard (file transfer across a network for example) and interoperate with a number of other implementations of that standard, yet still not be conformant to the standard and consequently not interoperate with some other implementations. Or worse, two vendors could be in conformance with the standard, but still not interoperate.

Here's an example - in one standard, it specified that a particular field must be zero; no problem, except one implementation took the approach that if the standard says the field must be zero, then they should be checking that it is zero and if not, they shouldn't interoperate. Then comes along an implementation that doesn't set the field to zero (leaves garbage in it) - and guess what, the 2 don't play well together.

So who is right? Well, clearly the implementation that isn't setting the field to zero should be setting the field to zero to be in strict compliance with the standard, but there's also the question about why does the other implementation care whether the field is zero or not? The other implementation isn't a conformance tester, so really, it shouldn't care whether the field is zero - the fact that the standard says the field must be zero really should mean you don't have to look at this field because there's nothing useful in it. By the way, none of the official conformance tests used to validate an implementation against the standard actually checked whether this field was zero - it was just this one vendor that decided to play the role of standards police.

Now, on to the unreferenced stream. It's entirely possible that DVDA is creating some placeholders in anticipation that certain tings may happen - for example, subtitles are a stream and DVDA could be creating the basics for providing a subtitle stream, yet if you don't use subtitles, then the stream may never be referenced. A stream can be empty and thus takes up very little, if any additional space on the DVD. Addtionally, while I've not looked at the software in question, it's probably not ripping the stream(s) out, since likely they don't have anything in them to start with; if there's no real stream to begin with it could simply be correcting some of the other structures to indicate the absence of the stream(s)

The question I would ask is why the heck does the LG box care whether the stream is referenced or not? If the basics for the stream are there, but it's never used, why do they care? Frankly, this sounds like a MBZ issue and while DVDA may not be clearly in the right, the LG box is clearly playing cop and shouldn't be.

Also to point out that DVDA isn't the only thing around with problems creating DVD's that are strictly compliant with the standard. My Samsung VHS/DVD recorder, as well as every Sony recorder who's disk has come thru our store does not create compliant DVDs - and if you attempt to copy them, in 9 times out of 10 the copy will be unplayable; luckily, CopyToDVD detects the issue and fixes it, so if someone wants 500 copies of a DVD that came from a Sony recorder (and I've had this happen), I rip the original DVD to the computer and use CopyToDVD to burn the new master.

--Scott

I would certainly never suggest that DVDA is the ONLY thing with player compatibility problems. However it seems to be the only application that creates this particular problem. DVDs from Nero etc are reported as playing just fine in the LGs.

I've had another but fortunately easy to fix issue with another combo unit, they sure don't like sudden jumps in the bitrate, they'll just stop dead. Given how cheaply these units are sold I suspect there wasn't a major engineering effort involved in them.

But this isn't the only issue with DVDA either, I've had the quality of my DVDs questioned by the replicators because chapter marks don't hit I frames. They weren't saying that's a strict compliance issue, just that the DVD mightn't play as expected in some units.

Thing is, it's not like we're using Scenarist, so when things go a little awry and we say our DVDs are compliant 'cause we use DVD Architect, well you know the rest.

What further irks me is a seeming unwillingness to get down and address these kinds of issue, not just in DVDA but also in Vegas. I've wasted considerable time trying to output QT 2YUV files only to find out, yeah there's a bit of a problem there, they'll show up as all black in FCP. This problem has been there for an aweful long time it seems. Short of having the good fortune to have perhaps found a post here about it (and I think mine is the only one) someone could have spent a small fortune buying kit to earn an income only to find out it doesn't work. I was lucky, I only wasted my and a clients time, others might not be so lucky.

Anyways, if this 3rd party fix does fix the problem with the LG units then I'm pretty happy myself. Question is given that probably less than 5% of Vegas / DVDA users ever come here how's everyone to find out about the problem and how to fix it.

Bob.

Scott,
I'm Guessing my Sony Vaio Desktop qualifies for the Sony recorder. How do I know for sure if this what I'm looking for. Where do I look?

Jeffery

The problem with the Sony recorders is in the standalone recorders only. It is not an issue with DVD's created by Sony burners in general.

Actually Bob, just because you are using Scenarist doesn't mean you'l be able to produce a DVD that will play on everything. In fact, Scenarist, because it gives you so much access to the low level structure of the DVD, provides you with many, many more ways to shoot yourself in the foot.

The truth is though that people who are going to replication should probably not be using DVDA if you are worried about trying to get close to 100% compatability. Even the folks over at Media Chance (who's DVD Lab Pro 2.0 comes pretty darn close to doing just about everything Scenarist does) suggest caution when using anything but a true "professional" authoring program (and someone who knows what they are doing when authoring) and going to replication.

--Scott

Scott,
good tip on the DVD-Lab Pro. I just downloaded it. The learning curve looks mild.

Mild until you really want to do some cool stuff, at which point you'll find yourself learning all kinds of neat things about how internally DVD's actually work.. Also you'll find the workflow is different than Vegas/DVDA because DVD Lab doesn't have a built-in MPEG/AC3 encoder like DVDA has access too, so menu generation is somewhat different.

Scott,

Great posts, as always. To add to what you've said about perfect compatibility being virtually impossible, I remember well in the early days of DVDs that certain commercial titles, when played on certain players would actually lock those players so they would no longer play ANY DVD. I wouldn't have believed it if my next-door neighbor hadn't had it happen. I searched on the Internet and found that if you put one of three DVDs into this model DVD player, it froze completely, and even unplugging the DVD player wouldn't un-freeze it. Fortunately, the same posts provided info on how to access the player's factory setup program, from which you could force the player to recover.

Also, while I have only a fraction of a percent of the experience you have, during the DVDA 1.0 phase, when the product didn't have any end actions, I started using "IFOEdit" to edit the structures created by DVDA, in order to introduce end actions (I wrote a long guide as well). What I learned exactly mirrors what you stated earlier, namely that the spec and the structure of the DVD files is pretty complex, and there are dozens of different ways to do the same thing. I would imagine that with DVD Lab and some of the other programs that let you query and set certain registers, in order to get more complex menu behavior, that you could also get into all sorts of lock up situations.

Thanks for the info on PGC Edit. I have had some menu compatibilty issues on my desktop Panasonic DVD/Hard Drive recorders at home and at work with DVDA authored discs that don't show up on regular players. Some of them were corrected with DVDA 3c, but several persist. I'm going to play with PGC Edit and see what I can find.

Looks like a neat tool.

Sony has just acknowledged the fault in DVDA3...

This just arrived a couple of minutes ago from Customer Support.

"The issue that you are experiencing has been identified by our developers. However, the issue may not be dealt with until the next version of the software comes out. I am sorry that I do not have any more specific information to give you, but it is a known issue that is being addressed."

Well there won't be a fix for DVDA3 so I guess it's upgrade the DVDA4 when released.... wonder if they'll offer me a free upgrade for bringing the issue to their attention..... no I don't think I should hold my breath ;-)

Stephen Hope
New Hope Media

Thanks Steve, at least someone is keeping us in the loop :)

Bob.

Just a little more of the 'loop' I have received this clarification from Customer Support.

"The issue is going to be addressed in the first update that comes out for DVD Architect (4), not the initial release."

As to DVDA1, DVDA2, or DVDA3 I don't think there are any plans to address this problem at this time. Which is not., for me, a positive state of affairs and points to Sony being more concerned with the new release than fixing the old one.

Regards

Stephen Hope
New Hope Media

Good job Stephen,
I've been using the Sony Editing applications starting with Movie Studio 4 and worked up to Vegas 6. I appreciate the ease of use Sony offers with these useful tools.

I had a GMC van that broke down after 60,000 miles. When I finally gave up after years of just dealing with bad products that we have to settle for, I got me a Toyota MiniVan and never looked back at American cars. I need dependability and quality in the products I invest in with hard earned dollars. I've spent thousands of combined dollars on Computers, software, cameras, lighting, and all the other good stuff needed to produce quality material that will end up forever lost on a disk that won't work universally in DVD players.

If Sony can't produce a DVD authoring application until the update in the NEXT version that comes along whenever, then maybe jumping ship to something more dependable is worth considering.
Is there something more dependable?

Jeffery

The issue with Sony support is well known, and it's not only Sony that does this - it's called limited engineering staffing. Most likely the people engineering the new release are also the people responsible for maintaining the current release. Maintaining previous releases is an expensive proposition and by doing so, reduces your ability to put new features in the next release (assuming you cannot increase staffing). So, what happens is at some point in time the decision is made to focus on the next release. The then current release is frozen. Any problems with the current release are addressed in the soon to be next release. Eventually the soon to be next release is also frozen and only show-stopper issues are addressed (which is how you get a 4.0 build #152). As the next release nears the actual release date, defered problems start to get addressed in the first bug-fix release; this is why you see something like 4.0 come out, and then within a few weeks you'll see 4.0a. I'm not defending this release practice, I'm just explaining what's going on.

When I used to do this type of work, we would produce one-off bug fixes for customers; however, those customers were paying quite a bit of money each year for support, which allowed us to staff appropriately to provide that level of service. Even then though, we didn't release a new version each time we did a bug-fix. Generally a number of the bug fixes would get rolled together periodically.

As to whether there's something more dependable, yes, there likely is but are you willing to pay for it? Iit's called Scenarist (which by the way, the latest version supports HD-DVD and Blu-Ray authoring); I expect you can pick up a version for $25,000 or so.

--Scott

I'm somewhat surprised at the relative indifference that this topic is receiving both here and in the DVDA forum. I would think that anyone who offers product for sale created with DVDA, whether self-burned, duplicated or replicated, would be expressing stronger sentiments than are appearing in these threads. It seems as though many have already resigned and accepted as fact that this will not be addressed until the first point release of DVDA-4.

While it may be premature to complain that DVDA-3 will not be fixed, as the provided quote from Sony didn't specifically state as much, I didn't find much comfort in what they had to say. Nobody is unreasonable enough to expect software to be 100% without bugs or compatible with every piece of hardware ever built, but Sony is now on-record as stating that this is an identified issue with its current release of the software. Users who derive income from what is advertised as a professional software package have a reaonable expectation that it will be professionally supported during its life-cycle as the current release. Refusal to fix software that creates media guaranteed to fail on identified systems is not a professional way of doing business.

Sure, we all know that development on Vegas 7 and DVDA-4 is receiving the lion's share of engineering resources, but until the new versions are available, V6 and DVDA-3 are the products being sold, and support/repair of glaring flaws should continue. Are they going to put a sticker on the box, saying "Works great, except on LG DVD recorders"? Abandoning a product with a defect this serious is a disservice to loyal SMS supporters, and smacks of the same shabby corporate irrresponsibility exhibited by Avid/Pinnacle when they pulled the plug on a seriously-flawed Studio 9.4, which actually broke some of the things that had been working correctly in the previous point release. This isn't a support model to emulate.

I started with V5/DVDA-2, and upgraded to V6/DVDA-3, based upon the remarkable stability and rich feature set afforded by both versions. I don't think there's anything remotely comparable in the price range. When initially contemplating preparing my first for-sale DVD, I backed off from burning them myself and risking customer returns due to that, and have chosen to eat the cost for replication for greater compatibility. Now I'm going to have to screen orders, asking customers if they have an LG DVD Recorder before sending out their discs? Or tell unhappy customers that they should just buy a new DVD player and everything will be alright? Not acceptable.

I don't have a problem with any of the bugs in DVDA-1 or DVDA-2 going unaddressed. They are not the current release; DVDA-3 is, and it should not be left in this flawed condition while Sony promises to sell us a 'whole' DVDA-4.

I agree with cbrillow. As long as they are selling version 3 Sony should fix the bug. They know it is there and claim they will fix it in version 4. My guess is that the fix they develop for v4 will work on v3. Since I have no need for HD capability I was not planning to upgrade when v7 is released. Now I will probably have to upgrade so that I can be sure my customers can play the DVDs I send them. There is enough uncertainty due to media without sending DVDs that do not meet the spec.

Regards,
Jerry

Frustration, embarassment, apologies and shattered confidence comes to mind when I finished a masterfully crafted project and handed it to a client only to hear those dredded words of anxiety and trepidation: "hey, it doesn't work on my player." I died a thousand deaths that day, knowing that I didn't have a fix. I hadn't considered the earlier mentioned scenario of replication of a bad product.

Can't Sony give us a couple of better options to "it doesn't work" and the update to the next version?

Jeff