Everything slower and more unstable in VP21 300

hambonio wrote on 4/13/2024, 8:20 PM

I have been struggling along with build 300 since the release date last week. I have a hefty system that should be working just fine.

RTX-4090
R9-7950x
96GB RAM

Clips are XAVCS 10bit 4:2:2 from Sony FX30 and a7S III Cameras that I have been using for a few years. I can link media info here if I need to but I figure these are fairly common files at this point.

Previously I had no issues simply applying a LUT (not other FX) to my clips. My clips still played at real time. Now they are playing at 5-13fps at best and very choppy.

If I add any other fx to them I start getting 0.5-2fps playback.

Also my renders used to be in near real time (sometimes faster if no heavy fx). Now no matter what I use (any of MAGIX AVC/HEVC/AV1) Or any similar in Voukoder I am getting less than 2fps renders. Also tried transcoding some files to ProRes and not only did that render take much longer, but the files are not playing back any better than my XAVCS Raw files.

I would simply go back to an old version, but all my projects will not open there anymore and I would have to lose nearly a weeks worth of work to go back to older versions. I should have done this early on but I have been hoping for a fix/workaround so I keep torturing myself.

ALSO When I open a VP21 project, the CPU runs very busy/hot for 20minutes to more than 2 hours before it seems to settle down I don't even do anything with the project - but have let it run long periods to see what it is doing and why this is using so much CPU. And even when it does settle the framerate does not improve much. For a similar runaway CPU issue I know in the past I had to turn off the option in Vegas HUB explorer to not create project collection, but this option is still disabled.

I cannot edit more than 5-10 minutes on any project before it crashes.

TIA for any help!

 

EDIT I have tried both normal rendering and nVenc rendering of multiple flavors.

Comments

hambonio wrote on 4/13/2024, 8:46 PM

These are my File IO settings. I have tried enabling and disabling legacy AVC decoding.

RogerS wrote on 4/13/2024, 9:47 PM

Can you share MediaInfo for the media you are using? It's helpful to understand exactly which camera settings you used.

Are you editing in 8-bit full mode or 32-bit full (ACES?) or video?

Are you applying the LUT in the color grading panel? It doesn't seem to be using much GPU anymore. I see my performance drop to 1fps with 100% CPU usage when it's in use with my 13th gen Intel:

I'd bypass it when you are editing the timeline and just accept it will tank render times. Does the LUT Fx only work any better?

Regarding the heat, I think you may need to adjust CPU limits in the bios- reduce the maximum wattage (it may be unlocked by default) to what your cooling system can handle (is it a 360 AIO or something less robust?) The combination of CPU and GPU will generate quite a lot of heat in your case when under stress- try watching it with HWinfo64 and see if you are throttling any cores or the GPU.

 

Custom PC (2022) Intel i5-13600K with UHD 770 iGPU with latest driver, MSI z690 Tomahawk motherboard, 64GB Corsair DDR5 5200 ram, NVIDIA 2080 Super (8GB) with latest studio driver, 2TB Hynix P41 SSD, Windows 11 Pro 64 bit

Dell XPS 15 laptop (2017) 32GB ram, NVIDIA 1050 (4GB) with latest studio driver, Intel i7-7700HQ with Intel 630 iGPU (latest available driver), dual internal SSD (1TB; 1TB), Windows 10 64 bit

VEGAS Pro 19.651
VEGAS Pro 20.411
VEGAS Pro 21.208

Try the
VEGAS 4K "sample project" benchmark: https://forms.gle/ypyrrbUghEiaf2aC7
VEGAS Pro 20 "Ad" benchmark: https://forms.gle/eErJTR87K2bbJc4Q7

hambonio wrote on 4/13/2024, 10:04 PM

Regarding heat, I just mean that my CPU is in high use for an extended period of time for unknown reasons and slowing down all use of the PC while this is going on. I have my temps capped at 85C in the bios (95C is supposed to be safe for this CPU but I don't like that and lose less than 1% on Cinebench with this temp set - I play with the bios a lot and my current settings have been overall very stable). Vegas seems to be keeping that right around 80C, and running at 180W during this time per hwinfo.

I have not tried the LUT fx with this setup yet (on a different PC at the moment) but I can try that - but it seems any fx I add severely slow down playback and rendering. I usually use the color grading portion ov VP21.

I usually edit in 8 bit Full levels and render with the 32 bit full (ACES) for my final outputs as I do see a difference in banding even though the output is ultimately 8-bit. For my renders I mentioned above though the projects have been at 8-bit.

Here is media info of my most common files:

 

eneral
Complete name                            : R:\2023-10-21 Cheyenne and Anthony\RAW\24p Gimbal Cheyenne and Anthony (1).MP4
Format                                   : XAVC
Codec ID                                 : XAVC (XAVC/mp42/iso2)
File size                                : 96.3 MiB
Duration                                 : 6 s 510 ms
Overall bit rate mode                    : Variable
Overall bit rate                         : 124 Mb/s
Frame rate                               : 23.976 FPS
Encoded date                             : 2023-10-21 17:42:42 UTC
Tagged date                              : 2023-10-21 17:42:42 UTC

Video
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : AVC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile                           : High 4:2:2@L5.1
Format settings                          : CABAC / 2 Ref Frames
Format settings, CABAC                   : Yes
Format settings, Reference frames        : 2 frames
Codec ID                                 : avc1
Codec ID/Info                            : Advanced Video Coding
Duration                                 : 6 s 507 ms
Bit rate mode                            : Variable
Bit rate                                 : 97.1 Mb/s
Maximum bit rate                         : 100.0 Mb/s
Width                                    : 3 840 pixels
Height                                   : 2 160 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 23.976 (24000/1001) FPS
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:2
Bit depth                                : 10 bits
Scan type                                : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.488
Stream size                              : 75.3 MiB (78%)
Encoded date                             : 2023-10-21 17:42:42 UTC
Tagged date                              : 2023-10-21 17:42:42 UTC
Color range                              : Full
Metas                                    : 3
Codec configuration box                  : avcC

Audio
ID                                       : 2
Format                                   : PCM
Format settings                          : Big / Signed
Codec ID                                 : twos
Duration                                 : 6 s 510 ms
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 1 536 kb/s
Channel(s)                               : 2 channels
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Bit depth                                : 16 bits
Stream size                              : 1.19 MiB (1%)
Encoded date                             : 2023-10-21 17:42:42 UTC
Tagged date                              : 2023-10-21 17:42:42 UTC

Other
ID                                       : 3
Type                                     : meta
Format                                   : rtmd
Codec ID                                 : rtmd
Duration                                 : 6 s 507 ms
Bit rate mode                            : Constant

zzzzzz9125 wrote on 4/13/2024, 10:39 PM

I would simply go back to an old version, but all my projects will not open there anymore and I would have to lose nearly a weeks worth of work to go back to older versions. I should have done this early on but I have been hoping for a fix/workaround so I keep torturing myself.

If this issue cannot be resolved immediately, I suggest you to downgrade the project file version, see: https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/the-way-to-downgrade-your-project-file-version-from-21-build-300--145314/

RogerS wrote on 4/13/2024, 10:46 PM

Thanks for clarifying. 85C @ 180W should be fine- my air cooler can keep up with temps above 200W.

I just ran tests yesterday on my desktop in 8-bit and 32-bit ACES mode and posted in a different thread. I'm seeing the same thing as you re: CGP performance, though after I finish high CPU usage it returns to normal temps and fan speeds in a minute.

Here's the test: on my desktop system (13th gen Intel CPU + RTX 2080), I loaded a A7SIII 10-bit 422 4K AVC file I have and changed the settings to ACES (ACEScc). It played back at a full 23.976fps. I added CGP and it dropped to 1 FPS.

Without CGP it was at 30% CPU and 60% GPU usage.
With CGP it was at 100% CPU and 15% GPU.

Tried the same test with GH5 10-bit 422 AVC and got the same result though closer to 10% GPU usage with CGP on.

I think the issue, at least here, is that the CGP isn't currently correctly using GPU resources as playback with the same media is fine, even in 32-bit mode.

To test the theory I picked very easy media which GPUs can decode, 8-bit 4:2:0 XAVC-S (4K24p).
Still in 32-bit ACES mode I selected Rec709 color space and played it back- perfect 23.976 throughout.

Added the CGP and it dropped down to 1fps again and I heard my CPU fans spin up.

Even in 8-bit full, my 14 core CPU is at 100% when CGP is active making it barely playable at full speed (best/full).

Until GPU support for the CGP is fully restored I'd bypass it when doing editing vs color correction. I haven't tested if the LUT Fx performs better; I suppose I could do that and Graide Color Curves instead of CGP if it is faster.

If you use the CGP there is no way to bypass it for render, that will take a long time.

Custom PC (2022) Intel i5-13600K with UHD 770 iGPU with latest driver, MSI z690 Tomahawk motherboard, 64GB Corsair DDR5 5200 ram, NVIDIA 2080 Super (8GB) with latest studio driver, 2TB Hynix P41 SSD, Windows 11 Pro 64 bit

Dell XPS 15 laptop (2017) 32GB ram, NVIDIA 1050 (4GB) with latest studio driver, Intel i7-7700HQ with Intel 630 iGPU (latest available driver), dual internal SSD (1TB; 1TB), Windows 10 64 bit

VEGAS Pro 19.651
VEGAS Pro 20.411
VEGAS Pro 21.208

Try the
VEGAS 4K "sample project" benchmark: https://forms.gle/ypyrrbUghEiaf2aC7
VEGAS Pro 20 "Ad" benchmark: https://forms.gle/eErJTR87K2bbJc4Q7

hambonio wrote on 4/13/2024, 11:27 PM

Until recently for the most part the only thing I use the CGP (Color Grading Panel?) was for was to add a LUT. I think this panel has caused a number of issues in the past. Using "Undo" with the panel simply open takes an undo command 10x longer I have found, even if the panel has nothing to do with the clip yet other than applying the "Color Grading" fx to the clip. Also sometimes UNDO gets stuck completely and you cannot keep going backwards until the CGP is closed.

I have been nudged here over the years to use other parts of that panel for color grading but I am old school and like to use the fx for the most part as you can turn those all on and off separately. I feel like the CGP is an all or none tool and it drives me crazy! Though i have done some minor adjustments with it more recently. But I digress... Still need to get to the root of the main issue. I can try the LUT fx I suppose tomorrow - I don't think I have ever used it in that way.

RogerS wrote on 4/14/2024, 12:33 AM

Personally I add the LUT Fx at the media level and then add other Fx to further refine it at the event level. I'm happy to use the CGP in the same way (esp. LUT, white balance + exposure to create a base for further efforts) but not with the current performance.

Doing a quick test with 300 on an 8-bit full project and 10-bit 420 HEVC media the LUT filter Fx has a performance hit but is still editable I think. I also added another Fx (curves) after it to refine the image and it's still playable.

The root of the main issue with performance is the start at a new video engine. It has great decoding performance relative to past versions but I'm guessing some parts aren't implemented yet, like interactions with certain Fx and the CGP.

Custom PC (2022) Intel i5-13600K with UHD 770 iGPU with latest driver, MSI z690 Tomahawk motherboard, 64GB Corsair DDR5 5200 ram, NVIDIA 2080 Super (8GB) with latest studio driver, 2TB Hynix P41 SSD, Windows 11 Pro 64 bit

Dell XPS 15 laptop (2017) 32GB ram, NVIDIA 1050 (4GB) with latest studio driver, Intel i7-7700HQ with Intel 630 iGPU (latest available driver), dual internal SSD (1TB; 1TB), Windows 10 64 bit

VEGAS Pro 19.651
VEGAS Pro 20.411
VEGAS Pro 21.208

Try the
VEGAS 4K "sample project" benchmark: https://forms.gle/ypyrrbUghEiaf2aC7
VEGAS Pro 20 "Ad" benchmark: https://forms.gle/eErJTR87K2bbJc4Q7

hambonio wrote on 4/14/2024, 5:48 PM

I tried adding a LUT fx to the clip level (I use a wide variety of homemade luts that I might use different versions through even the same file so most things are clip by clip). It was marginally better on playback but render was still 1-2fps. I think I just need to muscle my way through this project and then downgrade and wait for these enhancements to show themselves correctly.

hambonio wrote on 4/14/2024, 6:50 PM

UPDATE: I just watched over a 12 minute toast file that took 6 hours to render this morning. Looking closely, about every second in the video there is a slight stutter. When there is not much movement you don't see it as well, but it is definitely there once I noticed it in the higher movement areas of the video. I have since downgraded back to 208, and tried the hex solution that was posted and I cannot open the file in any way. I guess I start over with this one....

EDIT: Using the MainConcept in the Magix AVC renders.

RogerS wrote on 4/14/2024, 9:47 PM

For stutter, I assume framerates match between source media, project settings and render settings?

If so, does checking "enable legacy AVC" in preference/s file io to bypass the new decoder help at all with 300?

If you have an older version of VEGAS (say 20) what about opening the timeline in 300 and then copying and pasting it to a past version?

Custom PC (2022) Intel i5-13600K with UHD 770 iGPU with latest driver, MSI z690 Tomahawk motherboard, 64GB Corsair DDR5 5200 ram, NVIDIA 2080 Super (8GB) with latest studio driver, 2TB Hynix P41 SSD, Windows 11 Pro 64 bit

Dell XPS 15 laptop (2017) 32GB ram, NVIDIA 1050 (4GB) with latest studio driver, Intel i7-7700HQ with Intel 630 iGPU (latest available driver), dual internal SSD (1TB; 1TB), Windows 10 64 bit

VEGAS Pro 19.651
VEGAS Pro 20.411
VEGAS Pro 21.208

Try the
VEGAS 4K "sample project" benchmark: https://forms.gle/ypyrrbUghEiaf2aC7
VEGAS Pro 20 "Ad" benchmark: https://forms.gle/eErJTR87K2bbJc4Q7

hambonio wrote on 4/14/2024, 10:29 PM

The project frame settings were all matched. I am not sure which was enabled or disabled for the render as both at first glance were working similarly. I am fairly certain it was enabled the more I think about it. But after he issues I downgraded today. If I feel adventurous I could try the copy and paste workaround. I just restored my system to harmony. I know I have copied and pasted between versions before and I was shocked! It was an accidental find on my part. Never even thought to try it. Then I would still need to revert back to 208. Opportunity cost loss is high here.

RogerS wrote on 4/15/2024, 12:53 AM

Legacy AVC enabled should act like 208 but maybe not as the rest of the video engine is also changing.

I think it's a good idea to work with 20 (or 208) and check back once a bugfix build for 300 is released. Your time is precious!

Custom PC (2022) Intel i5-13600K with UHD 770 iGPU with latest driver, MSI z690 Tomahawk motherboard, 64GB Corsair DDR5 5200 ram, NVIDIA 2080 Super (8GB) with latest studio driver, 2TB Hynix P41 SSD, Windows 11 Pro 64 bit

Dell XPS 15 laptop (2017) 32GB ram, NVIDIA 1050 (4GB) with latest studio driver, Intel i7-7700HQ with Intel 630 iGPU (latest available driver), dual internal SSD (1TB; 1TB), Windows 10 64 bit

VEGAS Pro 19.651
VEGAS Pro 20.411
VEGAS Pro 21.208

Try the
VEGAS 4K "sample project" benchmark: https://forms.gle/ypyrrbUghEiaf2aC7
VEGAS Pro 20 "Ad" benchmark: https://forms.gle/eErJTR87K2bbJc4Q7

hambonio wrote on 4/15/2024, 6:55 PM

More bugs I noticed with 300 (and have noticed in all VP21 vs older versions)

I had to temporarily go back to 300 today to rescue some projects. I didn't realize how many projects I was working on in the past week. One of them being a 90 minute catholic ceremony that I colored start to finish in 300 and never got to the render. Even if I did, my guess is it would likely have had that stutter that I had with the toast edit.

1st: The copying of the media to VP 20 worked pretty well, but I still had to manually add/adjust any track level FX that I had. This is a rare thing for me to actually use Track level fx and it took me a minute to figure out why it looked slightly different. Especially since by default you don't see the little dots lite up in the display on the track GUI unless you enable them.

2nd I was using compositing child tracks - This past week was the very first time I used that feature since SVP 9.0 (Yes, as in the year 2009!). I barely remember how to use them, but I shot some pretty decent footage of the total eclipse last week and found it helpful to blend some exposure settings. SO those obviously had to be hand done in VP20.

3rd - This is kind of a big deal - I realized when I copied my footage from VP21-300 to VP20 all the clips actually copied over with the CORRECT Full Color Range. When I looked back at the VP21-300 files I realize I had been editing everything this past week with clips being flagged as "Undefined" which seems to default to limited color range. This will definitely change my eclipse edits as I had an auto exposure for reactions that unknown to me as well that the auto ISO for some reason was capped since I updated the firmware of my a7S IIIs a couple weeks ago. So, THAT update failed me. It was so dark and grainy for the final 1-3 seconds before totality, where it should have been handled great. Being present in the moment was my priority so I did not want to spend 4 minutes adjusting camera settings. I did something similar with older cameras in 2017 and it worked great. Now knowing that it was imported as the wrong color space it gives me a TINY bit more room for detail (still looks pretty bad - even though it capped out at 12,800 iso on the automatic side, it did not seem to jump to the CLEAN 12,800 dual ISO that the camera is capable of.)

SO - Lessons learned - Do not update any software or firmware before once in a lifetime events!

I never use to have issues before with clips importing in the wrong color range but this is the 2nd time recently I have noticed this happening. Never an issue with VP 20 or 19 that I remember or noticed.



 

RogerS wrote on 4/15/2024, 8:52 PM

Hope the eclipse shots were salvageable. Wish I could have seen it.

These are the issues I found with 21.300 including inability to read color range for some files:
https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/vegas-pro-21-build-300-general-thread--145190/?page=1#ca909791

Custom PC (2022) Intel i5-13600K with UHD 770 iGPU with latest driver, MSI z690 Tomahawk motherboard, 64GB Corsair DDR5 5200 ram, NVIDIA 2080 Super (8GB) with latest studio driver, 2TB Hynix P41 SSD, Windows 11 Pro 64 bit

Dell XPS 15 laptop (2017) 32GB ram, NVIDIA 1050 (4GB) with latest studio driver, Intel i7-7700HQ with Intel 630 iGPU (latest available driver), dual internal SSD (1TB; 1TB), Windows 10 64 bit

VEGAS Pro 19.651
VEGAS Pro 20.411
VEGAS Pro 21.208

Try the
VEGAS 4K "sample project" benchmark: https://forms.gle/ypyrrbUghEiaf2aC7
VEGAS Pro 20 "Ad" benchmark: https://forms.gle/eErJTR87K2bbJc4Q7