Ext. preview contrast change between V9 and V13

farss wrote on 9/13/2014, 7:23 AM
Opened a current V9 project in V13.
I thought that looks "better' or maybe not.
No, it shouldn't look different at all. I'm pretty certain this is only happening with V13, V10 etc. are OK.

Just to be clear this is only on the Secondary Display Device, the internal preview and scopes are the same. Going from V9 to V13 the image is higher contrast, blacks are slightly crushed losing shadow details. The other oddity is this is with the StudioRGB to ComputerRGB Off in V13 and on in V9. Set both to On as I think they should be and the contrast shift is even more dramatic.

I suspect no one has noticed this and it's real concern, which is correctly displaying the image v9 or V13?



musicvid10 wrote on 9/13/2014, 8:04 AM
What graphics card and drivers are you using, Bob?
Vegas 9 and 13 both on the same machine?
Grazie wrote on 9/13/2014, 8:09 AM


musicvid10 wrote on 9/13/2014, 8:13 AM
Throw this on your monitors and let us know what you get.

Grazie wrote on 9/13/2014, 8:52 AM
Eh . . . Need to be a bit more scientific. - I'm using a ScreenGrab into M$ PAINT and cropping.

Any better, controlled methods?

Grazie wrote on 9/13/2014, 8:57 AM
ScreenGrabbing looks like both VP9 and VP13 are the same. I can't capture from the SCREEN without doing a CAMERA-grab.



farss wrote on 9/13/2014, 3:44 PM
Thanks for trying Grazie.
I'm not all that surprised by your results. I do have access to gear that I can put between the output of a video card and the monitor and record that what's actually coming out of the video card. It's a fair amount of kit though and it'll take me a day or two to get it.

It would be quite difficult to actually see this small shift with that kind of chart and the eye. A single gradient compared using the waveform monitor might do it..or not. It might been only saturation that's different.

What worries me is there IS a significant difference in the Secondary Display dialog box between V13 and previous versions.

1) No option to use an ICC profile.
2) The "Use Colour Management" tick box is gone.
3) The Studio RGB to Computer RGB checkbox has a different label.

Does anyone have any explanation from SCS as to why the changes were made and their wider implications? I know there was some discussion about ICC profiles not working, do they actually work in V13 but are now hidden elsewhere?

farss wrote on 9/14/2014, 3:47 AM
[I]"This old thread might be worth a read."[/I]

Thanks Nick,
yes that thread has been in the back of my head. Checking both of my monitors though neither of them has any ICC profiles associated with it.
Just to be sure I was looking in the right place I checked my Epson printer that I have as a device on that PC and it does have the various paper type ICC profiles loaded.

From that I'd conclude this issue is not related to ICC profiles.
I might be able to work around it using an ICC profile. Before I take that leap though I need to determine which version of Vegas is displaying the image correctly, the shift is subtle enough for me to be uncertain which one is wrong.

NickHope wrote on 9/14/2014, 6:26 AM
I'm picking up my brand new PC tomorrow and planning to install V10, V12 and V13 on it. Also planning to calibrate my monitors with my Spyder 3 and get into the whole colour management thing. So I'll definitely be able to contribute, but I don't know how soon. Got to learn Windows 8.1 first!
musicvid10 wrote on 9/14/2014, 6:51 AM
Congratulations on your new camera and editing box, Nick.
Can't wait to see your latest work.
NickHope wrote on 10/18/2014, 9:58 AM
I have now tested this in VP10 (32-bit), VP12 and VP13 on my new machine using Musicvid's test chart. I'm using Windows 8.1 and AMD HD 6970 with the latest driver connected by DisplayPort cable to my Asus PA246Q monitor. I haven't yet done the full calibration with my Spyder and applied any color profile, but it's pretty good just with the settings I've entered using the hardware controls on it. I can make out all the levels in the chart when I'm supposed to be able to see them all.

I found all 3 version of Vegas show exactly the same levels on the secondary monitor, and those levels were what I would expect. I don't have V8 on this machine but I'm pretty sure V8 and VP10 were the same too. So it seems this issue is specific to Bob's setup somehow. These were my settings:


VP 12/13:

farss wrote on 10/18/2014, 4:07 PM
[I]" So it seems this issue is specific to Bob's setup somehow."[/I]

Not just me, Grazie, who was even more thorough in how he tested this, got the same results.

From what we've seen there's no difference in how Vegas is decoding the video or processing it as the scopes and internal preview show the same values between V9 and V13.

Here's what to do.
Open two instances of Vegas, say V9 and V13. Put the same footage on the T/L of both and park the playhead at the same frame, you need something with good detail in the shadows. Have both versions of Vegas sending their O/P to your secondary display device and on your main monitor switch focus between the two versions of Vegas. The image displayed does not look the same. it's most noticeable in the shadows. I would not pick either as being wrong. I'd also add I doubt anyone would pick the difference using charts. It could even come down to a difference in how V9 and V13 is talking to the video card, both Grazie and I are running GTX 570s I believe.

The reason I haven't pursued this further is it'd involve a fair amount of time and kit e.g. an Edirol VC-300HD and something like a PMW-EX30. I can put the 300 between the output of the video card and the monitor and take the HD-SDI output of the 300 to the EX30 to record the signal being sent to the monitor from both versions of Vegas and then bring that footage back into Vegas. I'd thought of using a camera pointed at the monitor but that's problematic but a lot less futzing around with boxes and cables in my already very cluttered "edit suite" :(

Just to go back to my comment about using charts because I know that'll raise some eyebrows.
May moons ago a friend of mine worked in a facility that had three identical Class A CRT monitors side by side, they were sequential serial numbers, the techs spent hours calibrating them with all the right gear and yet everyone who looked at them when fed the same signal immediately said "they're not the same". This drove everyone nuts. They fixed the problem by swapping the middle monitor to a different brand.

NickHope wrote on 10/19/2014, 8:29 AM
I checked it again in V10, 12 and 13 the way you said with real footage as well as the chart. Definitely no difference to my eyes over the AMD HD 6970.

Maybe it's specific to V9? Or to Nvidia? I do also have a GTX 580 sitting in this machine but I'm a little scared to touch anything at the moment having spent hours getting my 3 monitors working from the HD 6970. I may get brave another day and give it a go.
DiDequ wrote on 10/20/2014, 2:27 AM

You should also check the monitor set up (cinema, standard, dynamic...)
It might change with V13 and not with V9.
Just press the menu button of your monitor to check.

Working with 3D and V12 or 13 changes my monitor settings from cinema to "3D" (much more bright)
Even if I display my picture in 2D !
I reported this bug to Sony.
To get rid of this bug, I open a mpo (3D) picture with Stereo Photo maker, press the F8 key (3D mode), leave the 3D mode, and my monitor switches to it's "Cinema" setting.
I'm also working with 2 monitors.

I cannot check with V9 because I started with V12.

farss wrote on 10/20/2014, 4:49 AM

You should also check the monitor set up (cinema, standard, dynamic...)
It might change with V13 and not with V9.
Just press the menu button of your monitor to check"[/I]

I'm using a Asus ProArt, monitor. IAFAIK the only way to change it is manually.
My suspicion is the issue has something to do with ICC profiles.

DiDequ wrote on 10/20/2014, 10:58 AM
I'm using a Asus ProArt, monitor
So, you should have those settings :
See the first picture.
By default, this Asus ProArt monitor uses the standard mode.
Check the mode, the contrast and brightness setting, close Vegas pro and check again those settings. You might be surprised. Of course, I am not sure, but it is so easy to verify !

I can tell you vegas pro DOES change this setting with my 3D mode, even if it is supposed bo be a manual monitor setting.
I'm also using an Asus monitor, but it is a 120 hz 3D monitor.
It is very disturbing, and it took me some time to really understand what was happening !

Edit : if it's an Icc profile problem, then I would tend to believe Vegas 12/13 display the correct colors.
Not all the sofware use icc profiles. When vegas 9 was realeased, they might have swapped this.

Remember the web browsers : a couple of years ago, only a few of them used icc profiles ...

DiDequ wrote on 10/20/2014, 11:49 AM
And if you uncheck the box "Adjust Levels from Studio Rgb to computer Rgb", you should get the same colors with Vegas pro 13 on your external monitor and on the preview vindow moved on that monitor.
Can you feel the color shift between Vegas 9 / 13 without the computer rgb levels ?