Gearshift Intermediates - similar to Cineform?

Cliff Etzel wrote on 4/7/2008, 6:11 PM
With the number of issues I have read with Vegas users experiencing the dreaded black frame glitch, I was wondering if the issue is appearing with those who convert their m2t files to Cineform. I'm beginning to find myself hesitant to develop longer form video projects in HDV to edit in Vegas for this very reason.

Having said that, in Gearshift is there a way to create frame based digital intermediates from the GOP based m2t files in a similar fashion as those created in Cineform that will bypass this ongoing glitch that doesn't seem to have been corrected yet?

I got to thinking with all the various codecs available in Vegas Pro, I wonder if one of the less compressed YUV codecs would provide better performance and less heartache compared to editing native m2t files or having to pay out the nose for Cineform - and still provide a high quality intermediate that is on par with the Cineform equivalent.

If Cineform is the only answer, which one would you recommend and would I experience performance advantages in using Cineform both on my single core laptop and my dual core desktop? My main editing is done with cuts, dissolves, some color correcting and titles, which comprises about 95% of my work currently shot on my HC7's.

Cliff Etzel - Solo Video Journalist
bluprojekt

Comments

farss wrote on 4/7/2008, 7:06 PM
I can't answer all of your question but maybe clarify a few points.
A proxy and an intermediate are two different beasts.
A proxy takes the place of another file, typically just for editing. For final render the edit infomration from the project is used to render the full res source. Gearshift automates this process. Proxies are used a lot. You'll no doubt here people talk about editing a 35mm movie on a laptop. Almost certainly what theyre doing is editing a proxy. Then the EDL from that edit is loaded onto a highe end system for grading and compositing. Gearshift lets you switch between the proxy and the full res file so you can make CC decisions etc. I haven't used Gearshift personally but it does sound a very attractive solution however I doubt it'd do anything to fix a problem with final renders.

An intermediate is where you encode the source to a more manageable codec. e.g. ProRes on FCP, Cineform in Vegas, Ppro, AE and FCP now I think. You could in fact use intermediates and proxies. Yes the CF isn't exactly cheap, I've only really used Prospect2K which is quite expensive but it's main competition is HDCAM SR. Two rolls of SR tape pays for the codec, sounds like a bargain actually. You can download a fully functional 14 day trial of all CF prodcts.

Bob.
Serena wrote on 4/7/2008, 7:52 PM
I was going to answer that "black frames" are not associated with Cineform, but since I've never (so far) encountered the problem with m2t or Cineform I guess that might be an assertion "too far". But it is true to say that I've used Cineform since the advent of HDV and not had black frames. I have had gaps between cuts, but John has a script for dealing with that.
Which Cineform? That depends on your medium and NLE. If you're shooting HDV for Vegas or FCP then NEO HDV. If higher resolution, then NEO HD (see their website for options and technical explanations). Will you gain preview speed? Vegas 7 & 8 handle m2t very well. Cineform was essential with Vegas 6, but now there are many who work with only m2t files for your described work. There are advantages to Cineform quite apart from any speed differences, which are explained on their web site.
MH_Stevens wrote on 4/7/2008, 8:27 PM
I don't pretend to understand this black frame phenomena. All I can say is I have used Cineform with my FX1 and HDV and with my EX1 and HD and I have also used ClipBrowser with no intermediary and I have used Gearshift and I have never seen this black frame thing. It must be independent of capture and conversion methods.
Cliff Etzel wrote on 4/7/2008, 9:16 PM
Thanks to all - It sounds like more of an anomaly with no clear cut consistency on hardware - although it does seem to affect Intel based machines as I haven't read of anyone having issues with AMD based computers.

Looks like editing m2t's with Gearshift is still the preferred work flow for me. I was beginning to doubt my decision on standardizing on Vegas/SF/AP/CS for the kind of work I shoot and edit.

Hope others don't mind my asking - I'm not trained as a videographer - I worked as a newspaper photojournalist and video as a journalist is a fairly new medium for me to wrap my head around.

Thanks to the community that tolerates n00b type questions like this :-)

Cliff Etzel - Solo Video Journalist
bluprojekt
Serena wrote on 4/7/2008, 9:24 PM
Pleased if I have helped. Yes, my machines are AMD.
JohnnyRoy wrote on 4/8/2008, 4:48 AM
Just to clarify, while most people use GearShift to swap between HDV or AVCHD source and proxies it does intermediaries as well. In fact, you can use one or the other or both. So it will create CineForm files or Sony YUV files as intermediaries if that is your workflow. It can also swap between proxies and intermediaries if you prefer that workflow.

~jr
Cliff Etzel wrote on 4/8/2008, 5:14 AM
JohnnyRoy - What I wanted to know was is there an advantage to working with Intermediary files as compared to using proxies/m2t's - given the Black frame glitch many have reported? Since I don't have Cineform - how do the SONY YUV files compare to the Cineform ones both in file size and quality?

Do the YUV's provide better performance while editing on single core machines?

Cliff Etzel - Solo Video Journalist
bluprojekt
JohnnyRoy wrote on 4/8/2008, 5:42 AM
> What I wanted to know was is there an advantage to working with Intermediary files as compared to using proxies/m2t's

The advantage of intermediaries over m2t is that intermediaries are a full frame format (like proxies), which means that every frame of the video contains a complete image unlike m2t which has a GOP format where I-frames have full images and B & P frames have only delta information. This does two things: 1) it reduces processor load because the image does not have to be re-built from delta information evey time you move the timeline cursor and 2) it provides more accurate editing because the image does not have to be re-built from delta information which could change depending on the interpretation of the deltas.

The advantage of intermediaries over proxies is that intermediaries are full quality full resolution so you can render with them. You are always dealing with the "real" media that you will render from. With proxies your are dealing with something "less" and therefore might want to swap in the "real" media for certain tasks like color correcting for example.

The advantage of proxies over m2t is that they are full frame and lighter weight so they playback smoothly on less powerful machines while still giving the editor a good reference of what the real media looks like.

> Since I don't have Cineform

Oh but you do. You have the Cineform codec. Every copy of Vegas since version 6 has come with the CineForm codec already installed. So you can easily render your m2t footage to CineForm without buying anything else. GearShift simply automates this process and allows you to swap back and forth between proxies and intermediaries or source. It's a productivity tool.

> Do the YUV's provide better performance while editing on single core machines?

No. YUV is less compressed than CineForm and so they are quite a bit larger in size and bog down the editing process. You need a pretty beefy PC with lots of disk space to work with YUV. I would use CineForm instead.

~jr
farss wrote on 4/8/2008, 6:42 AM
> The advantage of proxies over m2t is that they are full frame and lighter weight

Maybe I've missed something here as I've not used Gearshift but by "full frame" do you mean 1920x1080?

Bob.
NickHope wrote on 4/8/2008, 7:13 AM
Cliff, the version of the Cineform codec that ships with Vegas can be updated to 3.3.0 by installing the free Neo Player. I think I'm right in saying the Cineform codec that ships with the full Neo HDV is a higher version but I bet you can't see any difference. If you install Neo Player then remember to set a playback quality from its tools menu.

I experimented with Sony YUV and Huffyuv instead of Cineform in the past but not only are they substantially bigger than Cineform but various apps don't like playing them as much. I don't remember exactly which but I remember them being trouble. They're just more unwieldy. Cineform is very efficient and again I bet you can't see any drop in quality from Sony YUV. Then again if your computer can handle m2t and you're not using lots of effects then go for that.

Basically for your HDV stick with either m2t or Cineform, and if you choose to use proxies use either DV or MJPEG.

One other thing. Rosebud has a free script which gives you an alternative proxy workflow to Gearshift. It's called proxy stream. I haven't had time to test it yet but his stuff is good.
Cliff Etzel wrote on 4/8/2008, 8:42 AM
JohnnyRoy - Thanks for answering these questions.

What is the process for using gearshift to convert the m2t files to Cineform???

The PDF instructions that came with Gearshift doesn't cover this and I'm not sure how to go about converting a test clip to a Cineform AVI.

edit: I was able to convert one file but it is fubar. WMP says the following: "The Cineform decoder encountered an error" I haven't installed any other Cineform codecs so I'm not sure what the problem is. WMP shows a still frame with various RGB artifacts as if the codec is corrupted or something along those lines

Cliff Etzel - Solo Video Journalist
bluprojekt
Steve Mann wrote on 4/9/2008, 10:05 AM
"Thanks to the community that tolerates n00b type questions like this :-)"

By no means is this a question to apologize for asking. As you can see from the replies, the question intimidates many old-time Vegas editors.
JohnnyRoy wrote on 4/9/2008, 1:03 PM
> Maybe I've missed something here as I've not used Gearshift but by "full frame" do you mean 1920x1080?

That was an awfully imprecise word on my part. Sorry. What I meant by "full frame" was really "native resolution". i.e., whatever you shot it at (1280x720, 1440x1080, 1920x1080)

~jr
JohnnyRoy wrote on 4/9/2008, 1:12 PM
> What is the process for using gearshift to convert the m2t files to Cineform???

The best way is to use the "Source Files" option. This is where you Add the m2t files to GearShift from the file system. Then set Proxy Media to (None) and HD Media to HDV 1080-60i intermediate. Then just press OK.

> edit: I was able to convert one file but it is fubar. WMP says the following: "The Cineform decoder encountered an error" I haven't installed any other Cineform codecs so I'm not sure what the problem is.

Sounds like a Vegas problem. What version of Vegas? Is it at the latest levels? There may have been a Cineform problem that was corrected in a patch.

~jr