GH5 HEVC + VP19

eikira wrote on 8/20/2021, 2:54 AM

Just to see if its only my computer or if its a general issue.

Here is a small file with an HEVC mp4. The thing is, VP19 struggles enormously with just simple playback, no filter, no resizing, no zooming, no slowmotion no speedup. Just simple playback. The only improvment in playback i get if i turn on 'old HEVC' in the Settings File I/O, but with that activated it has a bigger potential of just crashing Vegas.

Vegas Pro 18 had same issues, but still was a bit better.

Try playbacking the file and inform me of your results.

 

X570 MB, 5950x AMD, PCIe 4. SSDs, RTX 3080, Windows 10 newest build.

Comments

Marco. wrote on 8/20/2021, 3:15 AM

With preview set to "Best/Full" I have 25 fps playback on my Swift 3x notebook (Intel Iris Xe, i7-1165G7 @ 2.80 GHz, 16 GB RAM). But there are issues (green preview frames) once I apply FX. I'll forward to the developers.

Richvideo wrote on 8/20/2021, 3:35 AM

Just to see if its only my computer or if its a general issue.

Here is a small file with an HEVC mp4. The thing is, VP19 struggles enormously with just simple playback, no filter, no resizing, no zooming, no slowmotion no speedup. Just simple playback. The only improvment in playback i get if i turn on 'old HEVC' in the Settings File I/O, but with that activated it has a bigger potential of just crashing Vegas.

Vegas Pro 18 had same issues, but still was a bit better.

Try playbacking the file and inform me of your results.

 

X570 MB, 5950x AMD, PCIe 4. SSDs, RTX 3080, Windows 10 newest build.

I had a long conversation with a few people about this and we discovered that VP18 does not utilize the Nvidia GPU to decode this type of file if you have Intel Quick sync as an alternative option on your system that will decode the file for better playback.

See conversation about the issue-

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/playback-issue-vegas-18--130698/#ca813267

 

I am going to be very disappointed if this was not fixed in VP19 because I had updated to VP 19 with the hopes that this common issue would have been resolved. Adobe Premiere plays the footage back at full frame rate and it uses the Nvidia GPU for the decode so I know that the issue is fixable.

 

RogerS wrote on 8/20/2021, 4:13 AM

It works here using Intel decoding at ~21fps at best full and 25 (consistently) with preview/auto.

With NVIDIA decoder selected it's still using Intel, so no change here from 18.

One caution is that this is the first release build of VP 19 and the model is no longer once a year upgrades but continual improvement, so reason to expect 19 will continue to mature and improve performance with continued development time.

eikira wrote on 8/20/2021, 4:28 AM

state of the art...

Harold-Linke wrote on 8/20/2021, 4:31 AM

@eikira, I have downloaded your file and inserted it into an empty timeline in VP19.

Playback with setting "optimal(Full)" as full screen on a Full HD Monitor and a 2560x1440 monitor is smooth.with 25fps.

I have not activate the old HEVC option. HW-decoding is set to NVIDIA.

My system is not the most performant one:

Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-7700 CPU @ 3.60GHz   3.60 GHz, NVIDIA GTX 1060, 16Gbyte RAM.

RogerS wrote on 8/20/2021, 4:35 AM

Harold, check performance monitor. It's likely decoding with your Intel iGPU (i7-7700 HQ user here).

Harold-Linke wrote on 8/20/2021, 4:59 AM

@RogerS: thank you for pointigthis out. You are right: for video decoding VP19 is always using the Intel GPU and not the NVIDIA. Strange.

todd-b wrote on 8/20/2021, 5:12 AM

2 fps on amd , it's not using my cpu or gpu

If I choose gpu decoder as none I get 25fps but I see deviations where frame rate counter drops for a short period indicating it may only just be holding 25 fps

So I test at 50fps project conform file to 50fps (2x playback) it is a mess, between 25 - 50fps movement of woman looks unatural reflecting the variable speed of playback. someone further needs to test, it should drop frames not playback at variable speed

eikira wrote on 8/20/2021, 5:15 AM

So far, thank you all for confirming, that magix was not able to fix this all the time. I guess expanding Vegas 365 was a clear priority over the absolute basic function of a NLE, to support standard codecs with nvidia GPUs.....

Richvideo wrote on 8/20/2021, 5:19 AM

It works here using Intel decoding at ~21fps at best full and 25 (consistently) with preview/auto.

With NVIDIA decoder selected it's still using Intel, so no change here from 18.

One caution is that this is the first release build of VP 19 and the model is no longer once a year upgrades but continual improvement, so reason to expect 19 will continue to mature and improve performance with continued development time.

Not the update I was hoping for :(

Marco. wrote on 8/20/2021, 5:27 AM

RogerS wrote on 8/20/2021, 5:32 AM

VP 19 development is still in early days. I'll be testing these and other formats as new builds are released.

eikira wrote on 8/20/2021, 5:34 AM

VP 19 development is still in early days. I'll be testing these and other formats as new builds are released.


yeah.... actually no. i mean its not like the 'intel only decoding' topic is a new one...
but i am wondering, what makes you think with an update in VP19 this will get addressed?

Richvideo wrote on 8/20/2021, 5:45 AM

VP 19 development is still in early days. I'll be testing these and other formats as new builds are released.


yeah.... actually no. i mean its not like the 'intel only decoding' topic is a new one...
but i am wondering, what makes you think with an update in VP19 this will get addressed?

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/download/file/mediacenter/l2adhc58saef/nG3IRliXnIiRXIML3XD3GlRlLMiiRiLo

eikira wrote on 8/20/2021, 5:48 AM

VP 19 development is still in early days. I'll be testing these and other formats as new builds are released.


yeah.... actually no. i mean its not like the 'intel only decoding' topic is a new one...
but i am wondering, what makes you think with an update in VP19 this will get addressed?

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/download/file/mediacenter/l2adhc58saef/nG3IRliXnIiRXIML3XD3GlRlLMiiRiLo

? that is just importing, and has little to nothing to do with decoding with intel only and addressing that in the near future.

fr0sty wrote on 8/20/2021, 10:08 AM

The team is always working on improving format encode and decode support, they just had to devote their resources to making sure ProRes RAW and BM RAW worked out of the gate. Moving forward, they'll be able to further refine those while getting to some of you other squeaky wheels as well. There's only 6 engineers working on this, they cannot tackle every request at once. It doesn't mean they don't want to.

Last changed by fr0sty on 8/20/2021, 10:08 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

Systems:

Desktop

AMD Ryzen 7 1800x 8 core 16 thread at stock speed

64GB 3000mhz DDR4

Geforce RTX 3090

Windows 10

Laptop:

ASUS Zenbook Pro Duo 32GB (9980HK CPU, RTX 2060 GPU, dual 4K touch screens, main one OLED HDR)

Richvideo wrote on 8/20/2021, 7:03 PM

The team is always working on improving format encode and decode support, they just had to devote their resources to making sure ProRes RAW and BM RAW worked out of the gate. Moving forward, they'll be able to further refine those while getting to some of you other squeaky wheels as well. There's only 6 engineers working on this, they cannot tackle every request at once. It doesn't mean they don't want to.

I admit I do not know the finer aspects of programming such things but is it really a monumental task to get Vegas to access the decoding from the Nvidia GPU, in my case the Panasonic camera has an HEVC 10 bit 150MB/s MOV codec and Vegas is not utilizing the Nvidia GPU for timeline playback but on the same camera they have an h.264 version of the same codec and Vegas does make use of the Nvidia GPU for playback so when coding shouldn't this just be a plug and play sort of thing, using the same code model but instead of pointing it to decode h.264 it points to the h.265 decoder on the Nvidia GPU?

I can understand BM RAW that it being a propriety codec that it might take lots of work to get it right but I would think that since you already have h.264 NVENC decoding working that h.265 should not be that much more difficult to implement.

todd-b wrote on 8/20/2021, 10:18 PM

n't want to.

I admit I do not know the finer aspects of programming such things but is it really a monumental task to get Vegas to access the decoding from the Nvidia GPU, in my case the Panasonic camera has an HEVC 10 bit 150MB/s MOV codec and Vegas is not utilizing the Nvidia GPU for timeline playback but on the same camera they have an h.264 version of the same codec and Vegas does make use of the Nvidia GPU for playback so when coding shouldn't this just be a plug and play sort of thing, using the same code model but instead of pointing it to decode h.264 it points to the h.265 decoder on the Nvidia GPU?

I don't understand it either, Most people using a video editor will have an external GPU, so fully support the video decoder on the GPU. Home users who build there own systems mostly choose AMD. It's been a little strange in this year where AMD chips could not be bought for retail price and Intel became affordable option but the trend is away from Intel, even with laptops now

 

RogerS wrote on 8/20/2021, 10:50 PM

If it were as trivial as you describe it would be done already no? It's taken multiple versions of VP to get modern GPU decoding to work reliably (remember so4comopund?) and variant formats (many varieties of h.264 and h.265 exist) are still being added.

Richvideo wrote on 8/20/2021, 10:59 PM

If it were as trivial as you describe it would be done already no? It's taken multiple versions of VP to get modern GPU decoding to work reliably (remember so4comopund?) and variant formats (many varieties of h.264 and h.265 exist) are still being added.

The Panasonic h.264 version of the same codec plays fine so I can't see how the wrapper (variant) for the .h265 HEVC would be dramatically different from the same camera.

eikira wrote on 8/20/2021, 11:06 PM

If it were as trivial as you describe it would be done already no? It's taken multiple versions of VP to get modern GPU decoding to work reliably (remember so4comopund?) and variant formats (many varieties of h.264 and h.265 exist) are still being added.

That is the question, how hard can it be to input an industry standard that has come to the broader field now 8 years or so on. H265 is nothing new, it should be possible after 5 new versions of an NLE to support it with all kind of GPU decoding. Its a standard, a standard is there so you can build around it quiet easy, and as a standard it requieres certain attributes to be acomplished. I would say your statment of many varieties is wrong, because its a standard its pretty much one thing to consider, meeting that standard. But what you meant, i am pretty sure is, that they are many codec settings, but thats the thing, they are all already defined, like what resolutions, what framerates, what blocksize, what pixelformat, what colorspaces, what gamuts, what bitrates, what databitrates, what framerates etc. you dont have to invent them new and hell if you dont want to pay license fees there are even now high quality open source and free alternatives.

so i personally just cant understand, why the heck an industry standard format cant be supported by a "state of the art" NLE. At least on Nvidias side the new NVDec and NVEnc are around since roughly 2014 (i mean the same today in RTX 30xx since GTX 10xx). VP13 or VP14 was released around then.

The Panasonic h.264 version of the same codec plays fine so I can't see how the wrapper (variant) for the .h265 HEVC would be dramatically different from the same camera.

Well that has nothing to do with footage coming from the same camera. Its a different codec. You could say to old software well it can play MPEG2 why cant play it MPEG4. I would say that is wrong thinking, or in other words not a real argument. But both are industry standards, and should be simply be supported in todays time.

RogerS wrote on 8/20/2021, 11:33 PM

It's not one standard is the answer and it's a moving target. This isn't unique to Vegas. The system I use, Sony, keeps building non-standard applications of AVC, X-AVC, etc., and NLEs are still scrambling to support them all. Vegas seems to be prioritizing popular formats on newer I-Phones, a7sIII, etc.

If you want to make a spreadsheet you can see the variants (add intraframe, interframe to your list) and you can see Vegas supports many but not all permutations. I assume the Vegas engineers have a matrix like this and are working their way through it based on what they think is a priority.

NVIDIA decoding has also been a work-in progress with 9XX getting HEVC decoding and then only some chips supporting > 8-bit depth.
https://developer.nvidia.com/video-encode-and-decode-gpu-support-matrix-new

I'd suggest adding desired formats to the "feature requests" thread in off-topic; maybe it will raise the priority for developers.

For me the highest priority is getting some of the Quicktime decoded formats supported by modern decoders (DNx, motion jpeg, etc.) and not the deprecated, semi-functional 32-bit plugin we have now.

Richvideo wrote on 8/20/2021, 11:41 PM

 

 

The Panasonic h.264 version of the same codec plays fine so I can't see how the wrapper (variant) for the .h265 HEVC would be dramatically different from the same camera.

Well, that has nothing to do with footage coming from the same camera. It's a different codec. You could say to old software well it can play MPEG2 why can't play it MPEG4. I would say that is wrong thinking, or in other words not a real argument. But both are industry standards, and should be simply be supported in today's time.

I meant that decoding for both H264 and H265 10bit codec is available on the Nvidia GPU -that is what is doing the heavy lifting in regards to the decoding and that code base as you said should be standardized at this point in time. I don't see Panasonic doing something so wild with the H265 version compared to the H264 that would make it so hard to program for the Nvidia GPU.

I think that Sony has a history of putting out new codecs on a regular basis which I can understand it might be hard to keep up with them but Panasonic has had the same base of codecs for the last few years (GH5 line)

 

 

eikira wrote on 8/21/2021, 12:08 AM

long story short, there is in my eyes 0 excuse why after all this time, Vegas Pro still is not able to make playback happen, on standard industry codecs. and also there is 0 valid defending of that issue and just say all the time "the developers are at it"... heck shotcut can playback 4K 10bit H265 absolutely smoothly. maybe integrate FFMPEG as an option to load codecs and use its playback decoders... but to let users just wait and wait and wait and say its a small team, makes it not better at all. I dont have fanboyism for Vegas Pro in that regard and i will call out nonsense, and the nonsense here is obviously not being able to address and fix something which is long overdue, but instead wasting time on something like vegas hub...