GPU Dilemma

MikeA wrote on 11/22/2013, 11:39 AM
AHHHHHhhhhhhhh!!! I'm putting together a new editing system and I THOUGHT I had just about everything ironed out but then I read Arthur S's thread and now questions about which GPU to choose are popping up. It was suggested that he change his GPU from the GTX 650 to the GTX 570 or one of the newer AMD R9 280 or 290 units. Can anyone explain to me why? Is it related to rendering speed, # of screens that can be connected (2 GTX 570s were also recommended), or what? Or point me in a direction that I can learn? I'm leaving off my parts pick right now because I want to be educated in the whys and where-fors of "this card" over "that one" from the gpu and SVP angle and not "this gpu will work better than that one with that MOBO/CPU combo". What does SVP want and what gpu will give it to it? I'm running SVP 10 right now and if I upgrade it will probably be down the road unless someone can make the case as to why I should with my new build.

Thanks!

Mike

Comments

OldSmoke wrote on 11/22/2013, 11:46 AM
You can do a search here for "GPU acceleration" and you will find many threads explaining why. The simple answer is, GTX5xx series is based on the FERMI architecture which was what SCS used to develop GPU acceleration; there is an equivalent on the AMD side too. The newer 6xx and 7xx cards are based on KEPPLER and that is where the problem is. Many including me suggesting that the issue with the newer models are the drivers for those cards which are no longer written in the same way and are more geared towards gaming. Some say it might even be a hardware or Nvidia intentional marketing thing. Fact is 560Ti and up works a lot better and faster then 600 & 700 series in all aspects, timeline performance and rendering speed.
SVP10 doesn't support GPU acceleration although I believe the Sony AVC was accelerated but not as well implemented as in SVP11 & 12. If you get a stable system like mine you will appreciate the GPU acceleration and other added features SVP12 has to offer. I also find that the MC AVC codec implementation is better as I get better results in SVP12 then 10 at the same settings.

Proud owner of Sony Vegas Pro 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 & 13 and now Magix VP15&16.

System Spec.:
Motherboard: ASUS X299 Prime-A

Ram: G.Skill 4x8GB DDR4 2666 XMP

CPU: i7-9800x @ 4.6GHz (custom water cooling system)
GPU: 1x AMD Vega Pro Frontier Edition (water cooled)
Hard drives: System Samsung 970Pro NVME, AV-Projects 1TB (4x Intel P7600 512GB VROC), 4x 2.5" Hotswap bays, 1x 3.5" Hotswap Bay, 1x LG BluRay Burner

PSU: Corsair 1200W
Monitor: 2x Dell Ultrasharp U2713HM (2560x1440)

videoITguy wrote on 11/22/2013, 11:48 AM
I think the issue is lot more complex than you realize and as far as you are concerned I would be willing to bet you $100 that you could care less.

GPU processing is useful under limited circumstances. Concentrate you horsepower under the CPU for handling high compression codecs and otherwise concentrate your configuration if you are handling uncompressed multiple video streams with high-speed disk and pipelines to and from.

GPU is worth about nothing to you.
OldSmoke wrote on 11/22/2013, 11:51 AM
Sorry I don't understand how you can say GPU acceleration is worth nothing? It is all to me and the very reason why I changed from VP11 and now to 12.

Proud owner of Sony Vegas Pro 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 & 13 and now Magix VP15&16.

System Spec.:
Motherboard: ASUS X299 Prime-A

Ram: G.Skill 4x8GB DDR4 2666 XMP

CPU: i7-9800x @ 4.6GHz (custom water cooling system)
GPU: 1x AMD Vega Pro Frontier Edition (water cooled)
Hard drives: System Samsung 970Pro NVME, AV-Projects 1TB (4x Intel P7600 512GB VROC), 4x 2.5" Hotswap bays, 1x 3.5" Hotswap Bay, 1x LG BluRay Burner

PSU: Corsair 1200W
Monitor: 2x Dell Ultrasharp U2713HM (2560x1440)

MikeA wrote on 11/22/2013, 11:57 AM
Yes, it looks like I didn't dig deep enough before posting. Sorry about that. I did just find the "GPU Specifications vs Vegas Performance" thread and I've started reading it. Guess I'm about to get edu-ma-cated!
Hulk wrote on 11/22/2013, 11:59 AM
Vegas GPU acceleration uses OpenCL, or open computing language. Both AMD and nVidia cards run OpenCL.

In my opinion the most important aspect of GPU acceleration is the ability to preview the timeline at a high quality in realtime. Editing is a creative process and if you can't immediately see the result it impedes creativity. Both AMD and nVidia cards one you get to about the $100 point do a very good job of accelerating timeline preview. But...

As videoITguy wrote, get a strong CPU as well because you only need one or two items in the timeline that are not GPU accelerated and the preview train comes off the tracks. IMO render speeds aren't a big a deal for two reasons. 1. Sony render formats aren't very high quality compared to what you can do outside of Vegas. 2. You can set up a render overnight or while you're working on another project if you have a good CPU and enough memory. 3. Only MC AVC and Sony AVC renders are GPU accelerated at this point in time. Note that the assembly or compositing of the timeline is always GPU accelerated (for items that are coded that way), but not the actual render except for the two codecs I mentioned.

Here are benchmarks of various GPUs rendering to the XDCAM EX format. Note that is is a benchmark that is heavy on assembly and light on render. The XDCAM EX format is relatively easy to render so this benchmark does provide an indication of how well a GPU can assemble or preview the timeline.

http://www.anandtech.com/bench/GPU13/588

Finally, I have been running a little benchmark site for Vegas that might be helpful to you.

http://www.hyperactivemusic.com/vegaspro/vegaspro.html

Listen to everybody here, do some reading, you'll figure out what best suits your needs. You really can't make a "wrong" choice.

- Mark

MikeA wrote on 11/22/2013, 12:00 PM
Could it be that VideoITGuy is saying it doesn't mean anything to ME since I am running VP10? That's the way I took it.
OldSmoke wrote on 11/22/2013, 12:06 PM
Yes, if you are on VP10 and have no intention to upgrade in the coming year or so then all you need is a good CPU, preferable a Intel hex core or bigger depending on how much you want to spend.
What kind of footage are you dealing with? HDV, AVCHD or higher?

Proud owner of Sony Vegas Pro 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 & 13 and now Magix VP15&16.

System Spec.:
Motherboard: ASUS X299 Prime-A

Ram: G.Skill 4x8GB DDR4 2666 XMP

CPU: i7-9800x @ 4.6GHz (custom water cooling system)
GPU: 1x AMD Vega Pro Frontier Edition (water cooled)
Hard drives: System Samsung 970Pro NVME, AV-Projects 1TB (4x Intel P7600 512GB VROC), 4x 2.5" Hotswap bays, 1x 3.5" Hotswap Bay, 1x LG BluRay Burner

PSU: Corsair 1200W
Monitor: 2x Dell Ultrasharp U2713HM (2560x1440)

MikeA wrote on 11/22/2013, 12:33 PM
HDV & AVCHD...

The CPU I have chosen (at this point is the Intel Core i7-3770K

OldSmoke wrote on 11/22/2013, 1:03 PM
For HDV you don't need anymore then you already have; for AVCHD it depends on the bit rate the footage is recorded with. It also depends on how "heavy" your editing is. Simple cuts, cross fades, CC will work fine in VP10 with a i7-3770K but there is no headroom for the future.

Proud owner of Sony Vegas Pro 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 & 13 and now Magix VP15&16.

System Spec.:
Motherboard: ASUS X299 Prime-A

Ram: G.Skill 4x8GB DDR4 2666 XMP

CPU: i7-9800x @ 4.6GHz (custom water cooling system)
GPU: 1x AMD Vega Pro Frontier Edition (water cooled)
Hard drives: System Samsung 970Pro NVME, AV-Projects 1TB (4x Intel P7600 512GB VROC), 4x 2.5" Hotswap bays, 1x 3.5" Hotswap Bay, 1x LG BluRay Burner

PSU: Corsair 1200W
Monitor: 2x Dell Ultrasharp U2713HM (2560x1440)

Stringer wrote on 11/22/2013, 1:46 PM
If your budget can handle it, I would highly recommend moving up to a 3930K or 4930k & 4 channel memory ... As long as you are on Vegas V10, a good mid-range vid card should serve you well...
Arthur.S wrote on 11/22/2013, 1:52 PM
Obviously, I'm in the same boat. A bit of digging around has brought up this: http://www.anandtech.com/bench/GPU13/588
And this: http://blog.whitesites.com/Graphics-Card-for-the-Fastest-Rendering-in-Sony-Vegas-Pro-12__635078797007330625_blog.htm

Notice there's a link that brings you back to this forum! Round and round we go......:-)
Stringer wrote on 11/22/2013, 2:13 PM
Just FYI.. While it may be preferred, the GTX 580 does not require water cooling per se. The Blog link you included alluded that it does, while showing a model that was built for water cooling..

OldSmoke peaked my interest in the 580 and I found this:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814487006
Has a 1 year warranty..

A little more comfort than you might find on ebay , but not to say ebay is not a good option..

I use it ( ebay ) all the time with great results..



wwaag wrote on 11/22/2013, 2:56 PM
The CPU I have chosen (at this point is the Intel Core i7-3770K

I use an Nvidia 650 along with the HD4000 from my i7-3370K to good advantage. You might be interested in this thread http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=4&MessageID=872603 and the one referenced in that thread.

wwaag

AKA the HappyOtter at https://tools4vegas.com/. System 1: Intel i7-8700k with HD 630 graphics plus an Nvidia 1050ti graphics card. System 2: Intel i7-3770k with HD 4000 graphics plus an AMD RX550 graphics card. Current cameras include Panasonic FZ2500, GoPro Hero5 Black plus a myriad of smartPhone, pocket cameras, video cameras and film cameras going back to the original Nikon S.

OldSmoke wrote on 11/22/2013, 3:01 PM
Stringer
Great find and yes you are right, the card doesn't need water-cooling. I wonder if the 3GB make a difference too.

Proud owner of Sony Vegas Pro 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 & 13 and now Magix VP15&16.

System Spec.:
Motherboard: ASUS X299 Prime-A

Ram: G.Skill 4x8GB DDR4 2666 XMP

CPU: i7-9800x @ 4.6GHz (custom water cooling system)
GPU: 1x AMD Vega Pro Frontier Edition (water cooled)
Hard drives: System Samsung 970Pro NVME, AV-Projects 1TB (4x Intel P7600 512GB VROC), 4x 2.5" Hotswap bays, 1x 3.5" Hotswap Bay, 1x LG BluRay Burner

PSU: Corsair 1200W
Monitor: 2x Dell Ultrasharp U2713HM (2560x1440)

Stringer wrote on 11/22/2013, 3:04 PM
" I wonder if the 3GB make a difference too. "


I'll let you know.. :)
MikeA wrote on 11/22/2013, 3:06 PM
Hey guys, I just want to stop and say thanks at this point. I've built pc's in the past but this will be my first "video" pc. I really appreciate all the help and discussion being offered here.

There is a bit of a price difference between the 3770 and the others mentioned isn't there? (Heavy sigh...)
OldSmoke wrote on 11/22/2013, 3:57 PM
3930K and 4930K are different motherboards too as those are socket 2011 but those don't have a build in GPU. Why not a newer Haswell socket 1050?

Proud owner of Sony Vegas Pro 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 & 13 and now Magix VP15&16.

System Spec.:
Motherboard: ASUS X299 Prime-A

Ram: G.Skill 4x8GB DDR4 2666 XMP

CPU: i7-9800x @ 4.6GHz (custom water cooling system)
GPU: 1x AMD Vega Pro Frontier Edition (water cooled)
Hard drives: System Samsung 970Pro NVME, AV-Projects 1TB (4x Intel P7600 512GB VROC), 4x 2.5" Hotswap bays, 1x 3.5" Hotswap Bay, 1x LG BluRay Burner

PSU: Corsair 1200W
Monitor: 2x Dell Ultrasharp U2713HM (2560x1440)

Steve Mann wrote on 11/22/2013, 8:51 PM
GPU is an assist, not a magic pill. You get the most bang for the buck with the fastest processor that you can afford - the GPU selection will be whatever is left in the budget. Some users find that with a fast processor, GPU support adds little benefit to the process.
OldSmoke wrote on 11/22/2013, 9:48 PM
Steve Man

Sorry but not true. Have a look at Hulk's benchmark tests http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?MessageID=874761&Replies=48 and you will see that even a 6 core CPU benefits greatly from GPU acceleration; as long as you have the right GPU.

Proud owner of Sony Vegas Pro 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 & 13 and now Magix VP15&16.

System Spec.:
Motherboard: ASUS X299 Prime-A

Ram: G.Skill 4x8GB DDR4 2666 XMP

CPU: i7-9800x @ 4.6GHz (custom water cooling system)
GPU: 1x AMD Vega Pro Frontier Edition (water cooled)
Hard drives: System Samsung 970Pro NVME, AV-Projects 1TB (4x Intel P7600 512GB VROC), 4x 2.5" Hotswap bays, 1x 3.5" Hotswap Bay, 1x LG BluRay Burner

PSU: Corsair 1200W
Monitor: 2x Dell Ultrasharp U2713HM (2560x1440)

MikeA wrote on 11/24/2013, 7:29 AM
OK, I guess it's time to show the configuration that I had originally chosen. I was trying to put this all together on my own, all the parts and pieces are so different from my last build I feel like I'm on a different planet. So, here's where I started:

CPU: Intel Core i7-3770K 3.5GHz Quad-Core Processor
CPU Cooler: Xigmatek GAIA SD1283 56.3 CFM CPU Cooler
Therm Cmpd: Arctic Silver 5 HD Polysynthetic Silver 3.5g Thermal Paste
Motherboard: ASRock Z77 Extreme6 ATX LGA1155 Motherboard
Memory: G.Skill Ripjaws Z Series 16GB (4 x 4GB) DDR3-2400 Memory
Storage: Crucial M500 480GB 2.5" Solid State Disk
Storage: Western Digital Caviar Black 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive
Case: Azza Genesis 9000 (Black) ATX Full Tower Case ($119.99 @ Newegg)
Power Supply: Enermax 750W 80+ Bronze Certified Semi-Modular ATX PS
Optical Drive: Pioneer BDR-2208 Blu-Ray/DVD/CD Writer

I put this together on PC Parts Picker. But, base on what I've learned so far though a better direction may be:

CPU: Intel Core i7-3930K 3.2GHz 6-Core Processor
CPU Cooler: Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO 82.9 CFM Sleeve Bearing CPU Cooler
Motherboard: ASRock X79 Extreme6 ATX LGA2011 Motherboard

That's only main components (other than memory) at this time. BUT, I didn't find any Socket 1050 MOBO listed on PC Parts Picker, only LGA 2011.

Is Socket 1050 available at this time? I saw references to it back in May-June that it was upcoming???

Thanks again, you guys are great at spending my money!!! :-D
Stringer wrote on 11/24/2013, 8:00 AM
I partnered the 3930K with an Asrock Extreme 9 almost two years ago and have never looked back.. If I were to do it today, I would probably go with the extreme 6, since the 9 didn't really provide any additional functionality for me..

I know there are those who feel overclocking is an unnecessary risk when working in a professional environment, but I have set my core clock to 42, and it is rock stable without having to fiddle with any other settings - voltages, etc..
OldSmoke wrote on 11/24/2013, 9:35 AM
MikeA

My mistake, it's 1150 not 1050. These are MB geared for the Haswell CPUs. The new 4771K comes with a HD4600 GPU. However, if you can fit it into your budget go a level up for a 2011 socket setup with a 3930K or 4930K, don't bother with the twice expensive X version that at best will get you an additional 5% improvement. Important is got stick with Win7Pro 64bit and a GTX570/580.

Proud owner of Sony Vegas Pro 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 & 13 and now Magix VP15&16.

System Spec.:
Motherboard: ASUS X299 Prime-A

Ram: G.Skill 4x8GB DDR4 2666 XMP

CPU: i7-9800x @ 4.6GHz (custom water cooling system)
GPU: 1x AMD Vega Pro Frontier Edition (water cooled)
Hard drives: System Samsung 970Pro NVME, AV-Projects 1TB (4x Intel P7600 512GB VROC), 4x 2.5" Hotswap bays, 1x 3.5" Hotswap Bay, 1x LG BluRay Burner

PSU: Corsair 1200W
Monitor: 2x Dell Ultrasharp U2713HM (2560x1440)

MikeA wrote on 11/24/2013, 1:23 PM
Excellent OS! That'll get me going I think. I'll post my revised wish list when I get it made.
Christian de Godzinsky wrote on 11/24/2013, 1:50 PM
This is a little crazy - everyone recommends to use GTX570/580 GPU cards with Vegas - but - these are OBSOLETE and impossible to get as new here in Finland. Why on earth must I buy obsolete, second hand used hardware to get Vegas to work properly?

Its time SCS chimes in and tells us directly whats going on... You could run Vegas on whatever hardware you had (before). If you now want to utilize GPU rendering reliably and with some decent performance you have the options to use either old hardware or some very expensive Quardo GPU's. Why is the support for GTX6xx/7xx so lousy? This is a recurring question, complaint and causes so much confusion and frustration. SCS - we need an explanation, shed some light on us! Not too much asked?

Cheers,

Christian

WIN10 Pro 64-bit | Version 1903 | OS build 18362.535 | Studio 16.1.2 | Vegas Pro 17 b387
CPU i9-7940C 14-core @4.4GHz | 64GB DDR4@XMP3600 | ASUS X299M1
GPU 2 x GTX1080Ti (2x11G GBDDR) | 442.19 nVidia driver | Intensity Pro 4K (BlackMagic)
4x Spyder calibrated monitors (1x4K, 1xUHD, 2xHD)
SSD 500GB system | 2x1TB HD | Internal 4x1TB HD's @RAID10 | Raid1 HDD array via 1Gb ethernet
Steinberg UR2 USB audio Interface (24bit/192kHz)
ShuttlePro2 controller