HD DVD vs Bluray when using standard DVD-Rs

Laurence wrote on 6/11/2007, 12:17 PM

Yesterday I bought a Toshiba HD-D2 at Sams wholesale for $243.87. That price includes 5 HD DVDs by mail. That brings the actual price down closer to $150.

Anyway, I tried it out with the Ulead Movie Factory Plus software I bought a couple of months ago and the results are just superb. I can author an HD DVD on a regular 30 cent DVD with menus and full bandwidth playback that looks exactly the same as if I connected my camera to my HD TV. With a half hour available on a single layer DVD and a full hour available on a dual layer, I can't even see any advantage to using actual HD DVDs.

My experience with trying to author Bluray format red laser discs was nowhere near as fullfilling. After spending $200 on Roxio DVDit Pro HD, I still could never make a red laser disc that would playback properly on my Playstation 3. In order to author discs that would play back smoothly in standalone Bluray players that would work with these discs (testing courtesy of Best Buy and Circuit City), I had to drop the bitrate down to about 18 mbps. This still looks very good, but none-the-less it is a compromise.

Anyway, in comparing authoring both HD DVD and Bluray formats on standard red laser discs I have come to the conclusion that for now at least, the HD DVD approach is better for the following reasons:

1/ Playback consistancy. Bluray discs authored on DVD-Rs don't playback on Playstation 3s or on standalone Bluray players with older firmware.

2/ Bandwidth. The Toshiba players seem to play back full 24 mbps bitrate mp2 encodes burned onto a standard DVD-R with no problems. Bluray players seem to need a lower bitrate of 18 mbps or so in order to playback smoothly consistantly.

3/ Ease of authoring. I can author and burn from one application (Ulead MF+ 6) without any real extra effort. With Roxio DVDit Pro HD, I need to author in one application, delete files, then burn the discs with another utility.

4/ Price. The Toshiba HD-D2 is only $250. The authoring program is another $80. For under $350, you are all set. The combined price of the cheapest standalone BD player and Roxio DVDit Pro HD is at least twice that. Then your still going to want to buy a Bluray burner and blanks for full bitrate final discs. Overall, HD DVD is way cheaper and exactly the same quality as you would get with full Bluray authoring including a Bluray burner and expensive Bluray blanks.

This could change. Walmart is getting ready to update their home electronics department in order to compete with stores like Circuit City and Best Buy. They will be pushing the HD DVD fornat with cheaper Chinese HD DVD players. One thing that could go wrong (for us at least) is that these new super cheap HD DVD players might not play back red laser HD DVD format discs as well as the Toshiba players currently do. Hopefully they will, but if they don't this would keep the red laser HD DVD format from being the wonderful cheap HD distribution format that it would otherwise be.

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Comments

Laurence wrote on 6/13/2007, 2:54 PM

Thanks Larry. That's good to know.

On my system, the following directory is read only and this read only status can't be changed from the folders properties tab:

C:Windows\Downloaded Program Files

You can uncheck the read only tab, but it has no effect on the my ability to write or change files in this directory. After trying to change it, if I go back to the folder properties it is checked again, and at no part of this process can I change or add or delete any files from this directory. Is that the case with your system as well?

nolonemo wrote on 6/13/2007, 3:44 PM

I find it hard to believe that there isn't some way to get the file in there. I would try booting into Windows off of the install CD, go into the recovery console (I think you will need to log in as Administrator to do this), navigate to where you need to be, use the ATTRIB command to remove any write protection, and then use the COPY command to copy the file you want over. I would, however, image my hard drive before messing around like this....

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/307654

LSHorwitz wrote on 6/13/2007, 10:05 PM

Laurence,

When I open the folder:

C:Windows\Downloaded Program Files

I see about a dozen files, the most recent of which is from December, 2006, and none of them related to PhotoImpact 12, which I purchased and installed (as an upgrade) about 2 months ago (approx), when it was just released.

They appear to be ActiveX Controls and OCXs, with most of the files dating back to when I created this XP installation a few years ago.

Perhaps a full install works differently?

Larry

Laurence wrote on 6/13/2007, 11:28 PM

After waiting three days, I got the following email from Ulead Tech support:
___________________________________________________

This is an InstallShield Error. InstallShield is the company who packages our installers.

Please search for the error code in their support site:

http://support.installshield.com/

Case #63547

Does this response solve your issue?
___________________________________________________

Wow! I see what people are saying about their tech support being lousy.

Laurence wrote on 6/14/2007, 2:43 AM

Well I'm up and running now.

I ran lolo System Mechanic and after running it I still got the install error message, but the other programs and content packs finally recognized the install and let me install them as well.

LSHorwitz wrote on 6/14/2007, 9:03 AM

Weird! Do you think the Registry needed to be cleaned up?

Laurence wrote on 6/14/2007, 10:12 AM

I wouldn't have thought so. I just reformatted my hard drive reinstalled everything from XP Pro on down just a couple of months ago. I wouldn't have thought that XP would get screwed up that quickly7. System Mechanic did find around 80 registry errors though.

craftech wrote on 6/23/2007, 5:35 AM

Laurence,

I ordered and just received MF 6 plus and was wondering how you are going about creating the HD DVD discs.

Are you editing the footage in Vegas and rendering as uncompressed AVI first then importing the uncompressed avi into Movie Factory and using Movie Factory to render the Mpeg file?

Are you using the default settings for everything?

Are there any tricks you learned?

Thanks,

John

Laurence wrote on 6/23/2007, 6:01 AM

You can do your editing in Vegas and just render an HDV mpeg2 just like you were going to copy the project back to tape.

The one thing that you need to do however is convert the m2t file into a regular mpeg2 file by removing the extra transport data. The way I'm doing this is to load the m2t file into MPEG VCR (from Womble.com) and resaving it as a regular mpeg2. This involves no rerendering so it is pretty quick. I understand you can also do this with a program called Video Redo, but I haven't tried it.

MF 6 Plus will not accept the m2t file, but once it is resaved as a regular mpeg 2 file, it works just beautifully.

I'll bet it is possible to make an mpeg2 template that would work directly from Vegas without this extra step, but I haven't figured it out yet. If anyone has, please post how to do it.

craftech wrote on 6/23/2007, 6:22 AM

Thanks Laurence. And the birate you are using is 25000 kb/s. Is that correct?

John

Laurence wrote on 6/23/2007, 6:29 AM

Yeah, the bitrate is the standard 25000 kb/s from the 1080i HDV template. So far it works just beautifully with the high bitrate. I do have to drop the bitrate down a bit to do red laser Blurays. Otherwise, the process is the same. Unfortunately the red laser Blurays don't play back on enough players to make it a viable format.

craftech wrote on 6/23/2007, 6:37 AM

Yeah, the bitrate is the standard 25000 kb/s from the 1080i HDV template. So far it works just beautifully with the high bitrate.
=========
Have you tried the Movie Factory renderer yet? Years ago I had MF 1.0 and the MF renderer was clearly not equal to the Main Concept renderer in Vegas, but I was wondering if it has improved dramatically.

John

blink3times wrote on 6/23/2007, 6:48 AM

I usually drop my bit rate to 19000... which is not at all noticeable. This will allow me to place 50 minutes on a double layer disk complete with DD5.1 sound. If you use verbatim disks, you are pretty much guarantied to come up with a perfect disk EVERY time.... and it's simple to do. The only inconsistency that exists with HD DVD is that the A1 machines will playback DD5.1 sound. The second generation machines (the A2's) will not ... you must use mpeg audio.

To the other extreme is blu ray. Yes they have the real burners out and you can burn to a real disk.

But if you see this thread in the AVS forum, it can be easily seen what a confusing mess the blu ray burning systems are. There is very little consistency in anything ranging from the players used to the programs required. It is all extremely liquid, and hit/miss.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=815296

What remains to be seen when the HD DVD burners come out this August is whether or not they come out clean... or in the same mess that blu ray is in.

craftech wrote on 6/23/2007, 6:52 AM

Thanks,

This should be fun to experiment with.

John

tnw2933 wrote on 6/23/2007, 9:22 AM

Blink3times,

I have been burning RL HD-DVD's and I don't have any problems getting the 5.1 ac3 files prepared in Vegas to playback on my RL HD-DVD's in full 5.1 DDS using HDMI output form my Toshiba HD-A2. I never use mpeg audio on my RL HD-DVD's. I use MF6+ to author the RL HD-DVD's and Nero Ultimate 7 to actually burn them to disk.

Tom

blink3times wrote on 6/23/2007, 10:56 AM

"I have been burning RL HD-DVD's and I don't have any problems getting the 5.1 ac3 files prepared in Vegas to playback on my RL HD-DVD's in full 5.1 DDS using HDMI output form my Toshiba HD-A2. I never use mpeg audio on my RL HD-DVD's. I use MF6+ to author the RL HD-DVD's and Nero Ultimate 7 to actually burn them to disk."

========================================

I don't doubt that..... there have been a few reports of success with DD5.1 and the A2... and also a few reports of failure. On the other hand, never has there been a failure (that I know of) with DD5.1 and the A1. Just as example, I have a buddy with both the A1 and the A2... a disk with DD5.1 plays fine in his A1... but the audio skips like crazy in the A2. The A2 skipping has become something of a common complaint on the DD5.1 playback. Sooooo, there is SOME inconsistency SOMEWHERE within the A2 that I feel needs to be aired.

Of course this does not for one second change my mind on which format is a better bet for home burning.... so far it is clearly HD DVD.... let's see if that remains so!

LSHorwitz wrote on 6/23/2007, 1:33 PM

Just wanted to add that Ulead now uses the Mainconcept renderer (versus the older Ligos renderer used in some prior versions) and the results are excellent, just as is the case with Mainconcepts renderer in Vegas. For whatever it is worth, I have also taken the same HDV footage, rendered it in Mainconcepts in Vegas, rendered it in Mainconcepts found in Ulead, and also rendered it in the Apple Final Cut Pro Studio HD Compressor. By doing frame grabs and then "pixel peeping" in Adobe Photoshop wuth the grabbed images, it is entirely obvious that Mainconcepts in both Vegas and Ulead work the same, and both beat Final Cut by a small margin in detail, color
saturation, and image artifacting / noise.

Also.....as I have stated here before.....when I first introduced this Sony Vegas forum to the idea of doing HD DVDs with Ulead rather than going the BluRay "big bucks" alternative:

If your settings are done properly in Ulead (either Movie Factory 6 Plus or in VideoStudio 11 Plus) you will *****NOT***** need to do any re-rendering whatseover, unless you add titles, do transitions, filter the video, or edit / trim. The HDV content from the camera and the encoded HD DVD are essentially identical, with extremely fast authoring time, and no degradation whatsoever in the video quality.

Larry

Laurence wrote on 6/23/2007, 1:39 PM

My stuff has so many color corrections, titles, animated photos, etc. that the smartrendering of the HDV mpeg 2 code wouldn't buy me that much. My final renders look just great even though they may be second generation. I really can't tell the difference.

4eyes wrote on 6/23/2007, 4:15 PM

Do the Toshiba HD-DVD Players have a network connection?
I thought I saw they did, what is it's use? Can one stream any video to it? Or for uPnP?

craftech wrote on 6/24/2007, 5:37 AM

Do the Toshiba HD-DVD Players have a network connection?
I thought I saw they did, what is it's use?
=============
All the Toshiba players offer network interactivity and connectivity. Unlike with Blue-Ray it is a required part of the HD DVD standard.

It is for downloading and storing new content on the players. Firmware updates can be done that way for example. So can streaming audio commentary, HD trailers (if the HD DVD disc you are playing is network enabled). Unfortunately, it can't be used to stream media from a PC.

John

craftech wrote on 6/24/2007, 5:45 AM

If your settings are done properly in Ulead (either Movie Factory 6 Plus or in VideoStudio 11 Plus) you will *****NOT***** need to do any re-rendering whatseover, unless you add titles, do transitions, filter the video, or edit / trim.
==============
Larry,

You explained above that you are editing in VideoReDo or VS 11.

From what I have seen so far one must calculate the length of the editied footage to 30 minutes or less for a single layer DVD-R or 60 minutes or less for a DL DVD-R and feed MF 6 a ready to go edited Mpeg 2 file for the program NOT to re-render.

Also:

It seems that if one were to edit in Vegas, for example, an uncompressed avi would have to be rendered from Vegas, then imported directly into MF 6 or printed to DV or HDV tape from Vegas and captured by the MF 6 program to get maximum quality. I also see no choice in the MF 6 program for using a CBR.

Is that wrong?

John

EDIT: "If your settings are done properly in Ulead..................."
I'll be dipped if there is any clue in either the printed or online manual or the website as to what the proper settings are. In fact, when Jan Ozer reviewed the software for Event DV he had to call Ulead just to figure out how to make an HD DVD on a single or dual-layer DVD-R.

Can you list the proper settings here Larry?
Thanks.

blink3times wrote on 6/24/2007, 6:53 AM

"
It seems that if one were to edit in Vegas, for example, an uncompressed avi would have to be rendered from Vegas, then imported directly into MF 6 or printed to DV or HDV tape from Vegas and captured by the MF 6 program to get maximum quality. I also see no choice in the MF 6 program for using a CBR."

===================================================

I do this but with a different program (Pinnacle Studio)

At 25000K, you can get about 20 minutes on a disk (not 30 minutes), but if you drop the bitrate a little you can get more on.

I capture and edit in Vegas and render over to M2V... then imported to studio. I use dual layer disks at 19000K and I make sure my timeline is never more than 49 minutes ( I need room for the DD5.1 audio). Studio (as with MF) has the ability to SmartRender and I manually set the bitrate for 19000... so the output file is virtually the same as the input. The SmartRender works to its maximum level so as a result, a 49 minute timeline renders (or more or less copies) the file in about 12 to 15 minutes.... no quality loss.

I don't know about MF but you can burn CBR in studio. There used to be a vbr/cbr switch, but for some reason they removed it so it defaults on VBR. But it can still be changed through the registry.

craftech wrote on 6/24/2007, 7:09 AM

Just a note. I found an ongoing thread at the Ulead DVDMF forum indicating a bug in many of the menus. No highlight button when some of the authored DVDs are played in a set top player.

John

craftech wrote on 6/24/2007, 7:10 AM

There used to be a vbr/cbr switch, but for some reason they removed it so it defaults on VBR. But it can still be changed through the registry.
========
Thanks.

Do you know where in the registry? It may be in the same location in MF.

John