HD DVD vs Bluray when using standard DVD-Rs

Laurence wrote on 6/11/2007, 12:17 PM

Yesterday I bought a Toshiba HD-D2 at Sams wholesale for $243.87. That price includes 5 HD DVDs by mail. That brings the actual price down closer to $150.

Anyway, I tried it out with the Ulead Movie Factory Plus software I bought a couple of months ago and the results are just superb. I can author an HD DVD on a regular 30 cent DVD with menus and full bandwidth playback that looks exactly the same as if I connected my camera to my HD TV. With a half hour available on a single layer DVD and a full hour available on a dual layer, I can't even see any advantage to using actual HD DVDs.

My experience with trying to author Bluray format red laser discs was nowhere near as fullfilling. After spending $200 on Roxio DVDit Pro HD, I still could never make a red laser disc that would playback properly on my Playstation 3. In order to author discs that would play back smoothly in standalone Bluray players that would work with these discs (testing courtesy of Best Buy and Circuit City), I had to drop the bitrate down to about 18 mbps. This still looks very good, but none-the-less it is a compromise.

Anyway, in comparing authoring both HD DVD and Bluray formats on standard red laser discs I have come to the conclusion that for now at least, the HD DVD approach is better for the following reasons:

1/ Playback consistancy. Bluray discs authored on DVD-Rs don't playback on Playstation 3s or on standalone Bluray players with older firmware.

2/ Bandwidth. The Toshiba players seem to play back full 24 mbps bitrate mp2 encodes burned onto a standard DVD-R with no problems. Bluray players seem to need a lower bitrate of 18 mbps or so in order to playback smoothly consistantly.

3/ Ease of authoring. I can author and burn from one application (Ulead MF+ 6) without any real extra effort. With Roxio DVDit Pro HD, I need to author in one application, delete files, then burn the discs with another utility.

4/ Price. The Toshiba HD-D2 is only $250. The authoring program is another $80. For under $350, you are all set. The combined price of the cheapest standalone BD player and Roxio DVDit Pro HD is at least twice that. Then your still going to want to buy a Bluray burner and blanks for full bitrate final discs. Overall, HD DVD is way cheaper and exactly the same quality as you would get with full Bluray authoring including a Bluray burner and expensive Bluray blanks.

This could change. Walmart is getting ready to update their home electronics department in order to compete with stores like Circuit City and Best Buy. They will be pushing the HD DVD fornat with cheaper Chinese HD DVD players. One thing that could go wrong (for us at least) is that these new super cheap HD DVD players might not play back red laser HD DVD format discs as well as the Toshiba players currently do. Hopefully they will, but if they don't this would keep the red laser HD DVD format from being the wonderful cheap HD distribution format that it would otherwise be.

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Comments

4eyes wrote on 6/24/2007, 9:33 AM

craftech,
Thankyou for your answer to the Network connection on the Toshiba Players.

For You,
In MF (ulead program), Preferences (Make sure quality is set to "Best")
First make sure your in a HD project (bottom left of screen disk size, set to HD-Dvd).
Then click on the Gear Icon | Change Mpeg Settings | Customize
Change these settings to any of your choices using the 2 tabs, CBR/VBR Audio=lpcm/mpeg/dolby.
"Create Movie Templates" is also easy and apply them as your project under the Gear Icon.
Export feature is very powerful to use after properly setting project settings.

Vegas rendering engine sometimes takes longer because "It's Better" & more reliable.

craftech wrote on 6/24/2007, 9:36 AM

In MF (ulead program), Preferences (Make sure quality is set to "Best")
First make sure your in a HD project (bottom left of screen disk size, set to HD-Dvd).
Then click on the Gear Icon | Change Mpeg Settings | Customize
Change these settings to any of your choices using the 2 tabs, CBR/VBR Audio=lpcm/mpeg/dolby.
"Create Movie Templates" is also easy and apply them as your project under the Gear Icon.
Export feature is very powerful.
==============
Thank you . That's really helpful.

John

GeorgeW wrote on 6/24/2007, 10:09 AM

Just a note. I found an ongoing thread at the Ulead DVDMF forum indicating a bug in many of the menus. No highlight button when some of the authored DVDs are played in a set top player.

Hi John,

That issue seems to be isolated to something particular about the OP's configuration and software version. He was asked to work it out with Tech Support (several times), and I think he is in the process of doing so...

craftech wrote on 6/24/2007, 5:17 PM

Hi John,

That issue seems to be isolated to something particular about the OP's configuration and software version. He was asked to work it out with Tech Support (several times), and I think he is in the process of doing so...
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Well that's a relief.

Thanks George.

John

Zelkien69 wrote on 6/24/2007, 7:52 PM

I skimmed through and didn't see a mention of Blu-Print. Render to Blu-Print in Vegas 7 and just copy it to a DVD. Plays back with 0 problems on my PS3. Don't give up on Blu-Ray.

Laurence wrote on 6/24/2007, 9:46 PM

Yeah the PS3 will play Blu-Print renders, but you're better off doing straight 1440x1080i m2t renders like you are going back to tape. Like I've said this is great for playing your HD projects in your living room, but isn't really adequate as a distribution format.

LSHorwitz wrote on 6/25/2007, 6:35 AM

craftech,

I would personally avoid re-rendering to an avi format in Vegas, but instead would use Vegas Mainconcept mpeg2 output with the HDV template so as to keep the original content if possible. I have not actually compared the results doing it both ways, so the avi approach may actually work better, but my general impression and experience has been that less recompression is better.

I use a cuts-only editing process like VideoReDo which preserves the GOPs in the original HDV MEPG2 contewnt, and (as you and others correctly indicate) make a file whose length will comfortably fit a single or dual layer disk, nominally 23 or 46 minutes. If I need to use Vegas for more elaborate editing / filtering / etc.,I take the file out of Vegas as an mepg2 using the Mainconcepts HDV template for rendering, I very seldom use this approach, since I am actually more comfortable now using Video Studio 11 Plus from Ulead to do editing and filtering and effects (despite VS11 being a less capable program). Once the HDV mpeg2 file is ready for authoring, I use VS11 Plus (or MF 6 +), with the disk template settings precisely matching the original HDV footage in each and every respect. These are set by clicking the "Gear" icon at the bottom left of the window:

MPEG files
24 bits, 1440 x 1080, 29.97 fps
Upper Field First
(HDDVD-NTSC), 16:9
Video data rate: 25000 kbps
Audio data rate: 384 kbps
MPEG audio layer 2, 48 KHz, Stereo

The rendering time required will vary depending upon your specific hardware, but even on a relatively old and slow machine this will be a small fraction of the project playing time. For a simple example, a 23 minute HD DVD excluding the actual burn time for the disk might take 15 minutes on a 3 year old Intel hyperthreaded 2.8 / 3.0 Ghz GHz processor.

Hope this helps,

Larry

BTW...just to clarify somebody's reference earlier.....Jan Ozer is a "he" and not a "she". I have exchanged email with him a few times, and his picture shows up in his columns in eventDV magazine all the time.

apit34356 wrote on 6/25/2007, 10:09 AM

craftech wrote on 6/25/2007, 10:59 AM

craftech,

I would personally avoid re-rendering to an avi format in Vegas, but instead would use Vegas Mainconcept mpeg2 output with the HDV template so as to keep the original content if possible. I have not actually compared the results doing it both ways, so the avi approach may actually work better, but my general impression and experience has been that less recompression is better.

I use a cuts-only editing process like VideoReDo which preserves the GOPs in the original HDV MEPG2 contewnt, and (as you and others correctly indicate) make a file whose length will comfortably fit a single or dual layer disk, nominally 23 or 46 minutes. If I need to use Vegas for more elaborate editing / filtering / etc.,I take the file out of Vegas as an mepg2 using the Mainconcepts HDV template for rendering, I very seldom use this approach, since I am actually more comfortable now using Video Studio 11 Plus from Ulead to do editing and filtering and effects (despite VS11 being a less capable program). Once the HDV mpeg2 file is ready for authoring, I use VS11 Plus (or MF 6 +), with the disk template settings precisely matching the original HDV footage in each and every respect. These are set by clicking the "Gear" icon at the bottom left of the window:

MPEG files
24 bits, 1440 x 1080, 29.97 fps
Upper Field First
(HDDVD-NTSC), 16:9
Video data rate: 25000 kbps
Audio data rate: 384 kbps
MPEG audio layer 2, 48 KHz, Stereo

The rendering time required will vary depending upon your specific hardware, but even on a relatively old and slow machine this will be a small fraction of the project playing time. For a simple example, a 23 minute HD DVD excluding the actual burn time for the disk might take 15 minutes on a 3 year old Intel hyperthreaded 2.8 / 3.0 Ghz GHz processor.

Hope this helps,

Larry
=========
Thanks Larry,

That is just what I was looking for. Much appreciated.

Have you tried this with 4:3 footage? If so, how are you doing it and how does it look?

Regards,

John

craftech wrote on 6/25/2007, 11:05 AM

"but isn't really adequate as a distribution format."???? HD-DVD menus are ok for the moment because BR players are refusing to open up this feature too early,( they do not consider this an issue). But if you are distributing a mass produced "product", why in the world would you put your "product" in a very limited player market, unless you are just dumping small volume "content" for a few $$$ than the major market would not support,( this HD-DVD market could be a short-term gold mine for Independent films).
=========
I "think" the original poster (Laurence) was suggesting that if this were for say a wedding video client, a relatively low cost HD DVD player thrown into the wedding video package along with one or two copies of an HD DVD would be worthwhile.

John

apit34356 wrote on 6/25/2007, 1:15 PM

"I "think" the original poster (Laurence) was suggesting that if this were for say a wedding video client, a relatively low cost HD DVD player thrown into the wedding video package along with one or two copies of an HD DVD would be worthwhile."

That sounds like a good ideal for a wedding package. Tho, DIVX HD will probably have a longer market place for something that is as important as family wedding videos( I guess, the question is how often a wedding video will be watch in a 2yr-30yr period). But, with a packaged player, frequency of viewing is not as critical as durability of the DVD media or the combination of DVD media and the available of online storage access.

Maybe the "wedding package" with a limited online storage of highlights for X years?

LSHorwitz wrote on 6/25/2007, 1:45 PM

John,

I have only made HD DVDs with the template values shown, 1440 by 1080, which (confusing to me) is a 4:3 ratio, yet produces 16:9 format video.

Still cannot explain that.....

Maybe somebody here could enlighten us since all of the HDV world captures at 1440 by 1080 yet the format supposedly is 1920 by 1080.....?????

Larry

Larry

JJKizak wrote on 6/25/2007, 2:16 PM

Yeah!

JJK

Laurence wrote on 6/25/2007, 2:17 PM

HDV uses 1440x1080 with a 1.33 pixel aspect ratio. The reason is more technical than anything. Forgive my low tech explanation which I'm sure has got some incorrect terminology:

On a three CCD (or CMOS) HDV camera like a Z1, FX1, or Z1, there are actually three sensors, one red, one blue and one green. Each of these is 960x540 square pixels. The 540 lines of horizontal resolution are captured once every sixtieth of a second and they become the even and odd lines of the 1080 resolution. The three sensors are actually offset a little which gives a greater black and white resolution than if they were exactly lined up. Remember that a video image is actually a high resolution black and white image with lower resolution color filled in on top at a given ratio. That ratio is what is referred to as "colorspace". Anyway, this offsetting gives you 1440 vertical lines rather than 960. These 1440 vertical lines are interpolated out to 1920 at a one and a third to one ratio. Thus the HDV format of 1440x1080 which is stretched out to 1920x1080 on playback is the best you can get out of a typical HDV camera's three 960x540 sensors.

LSHorwitz wrote on 6/25/2007, 2:48 PM

Thanks Laurence very much, and I think your explanation is very consistent with what I have read elsewhere and is correct. To take it to the next square.......how then does the 1440 by 1080 rendered video from the camera and stored on the HD DVD also as a 1440 by 1080 format get played at 1920 by 1080. It sounds like the "stretch" stage occurs within the player or the TV / monitor.

I have seen some templates for making HD DVDs which actually specify 1920 by 1080 format, but these not only take a huge amount of added rendering time but also appear to make HD DVDs which do not appear better than the 1440 by 1080 disks. In fact, they actually (to my eyes) look worse.

Does it seem to you that the player or TV/monitor does the "stretch"?

Larry

Laurence wrote on 6/25/2007, 2:58 PM

The player (either HD DVD or Bluray) does the stretch.

The fact that the original footage is 1440x1080i is a good reason to render to these dimensions. The only thing you gain from a 1920x1080 render is higher resolution on things like titles and animated photos. That is why using the "Blu-print" template isn't really optimal for an HDV project. Especially since you can burn a 1440x1080 Bluray disc as easily as you can a 1920x1080 one. As a general rule, one shouldn't waste compression bitrate on interpolated pixels.

craftech wrote on 6/25/2007, 3:42 PM

If 1440 x 1080 is NOT a square pixel aspect ratio but 1920 x 1080 is, which of the software being discussed here compensates for that? Are you setting it for square pixels or not?

And doesn't that mean that it has to be set for 10-bit before rendering?

John

Laurence wrote on 6/26/2007, 7:46 AM

Ulead MF Plus has templates to do it either way: 1440x1080 or 1920x1080. I would do it 1440x1080 for any project that originates in 1440x1080 HDV.

blink3times wrote on 6/26/2007, 9:04 AM

Most if not all HDV is 1440x1080.... that's the standard. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to increase resolution to 1920. You will lose the Smart render system in the upconversion, and you will not see any increase in quality. The only thing that will happen is that your pixel size changes from 1.33333 to 1. The exact same picture is there though (less the quality loss due to the lack of smart render).

craftech wrote on 6/26/2007, 9:11 AM

I still don't understand what you do with 4:3 DV footage to get the best looking HD DVD. I don't have an HDV camera.
Do you render it as 4:3 or 16:9 and if so at what resolution? Or would edited 4:3 uncompressed video dumped back to tape from Vegas and recaptured by MF6 plus work better?

John

blink3times wrote on 6/26/2007, 4:37 PM

You need to render it over to 16:9, 1440x1080... of course you'll end up with black bars. But I am not exactly sure why you would want to do this.... 4:3 DV(avi) does not look that great uprezzed to HDV.... the original quality just isn't there.

Laurence wrote on 6/26/2007, 6:17 PM

There's really no point to uprezzing the 4:3 to HD, especially since both Bluray and HD DVD players will uprezz a standard definition DVD as well or better than Vegas anyway.

craftech wrote on 6/26/2007, 8:16 PM

There's really no point to uprezzing the 4:3 to HD, especially since both Bluray and HD DVD players will uprezz a standard definition DVD as well or better than Vegas anyway.
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With HD DVD I can use a birate of 25,000 kb/s which should give me better video quality than the 8500 kb/s or so that is the maximum practical CBR for SD DVD. The SD DVDs don't look as good as the original DV tape even uprezzed. I would like to try it, so what do you recommend for settings? I'll post back the results.

Thanks,

John

blink3times wrote on 6/26/2007, 8:34 PM

Bitrate is only a small part of the picture. I can drop a HD bitrate from 25000 to 19000 I hardly notice it.

RESOLUTION is the big ticket winner. what you will gain in a higher bitrate you will SURELY lose in uprezzing resolution. You are certainly welcomed to try... (I have)... but then you have to ask why more people aren't doing this.

You don't even need HD DVD to conduct experiments. Just uprez a 720x480 4:3 avi to 16:9, 1440x1080 and render it to file as mpeg2 at 25000. Vegas can do this easily. Then download a HDV sample (lots of them on dvinfo.com) and compare.