mark2929: sorry, I have applied the first reply, then read strategy applied :-) Well in fact your question was not about using an nd inside. Well how far you can be away and need to zoom in at F1.6 would indeed be worh a test.

Barry Green: Might it be that the bigger lens diameter would change something on it ? A can only say that with my VX2000E I have never been able to get such an incredible shallow DOF.

Dreamlx it would be really GREAT if someone could do such a Test :) Or Know of one done..This is very Important to me as its DOF IS My NO1 Reason for Purchase....

"DOF is determined by the lens focal length, distance to the subject, and aperture."

It is also possible to reduce the DOF by setting the backfocus incorrectly and then adjusting the regular focus for a sharp image.

This is demonstrable on for example an XL1/XL2 with the manual lens (which has a backfocus adjustment).

I wouldn't have believed it myself if I hadn't seen it.

This method is not commonly used because you take the lens out of its normal operating range, thus losing some performance.

coursedesign: You only talked about optics. What would interest me and surely other people as well: How does the size of CCDs fit in here ? As apparently using bigger CCDs you can get a more shallow DOF ?

NAB is coming in April, 05. Are we not expecting everyone and their brother to introduce more HDV cameras at that time??? Seems like Sony (in another intelligent move) is releasing this Z1 early to get folk to buy before the other HDVs are announced.
This is all assumptions on my part, of course.

I Guessed there Might be Some kind of Function That would enable DOF... Perhaps some way of altering the Lens In the same way Auto focus determines distance ect... DOF Of field might be calculated similarly Using the Optics Clever Gubbins ect.... I just take it for granted that THIS Camera has great DOF Because this is whats been said and without being able to have hands on I trust what I have been told... I Think an explanation of how this works could be really Cool !

DOF is inversely proportional to format size. The larger the CCD, the more shallow the depth of field can be. This is why 35mm film can achieve such shallow DOF as compared to a 1/3" CCD. The 1/6" CCD's of recent consumer camcorders have virtually infinite DOF.

Google "depth of field" and it will turn up hundreds of hits. Here's one:

http://www.photo.net/learn/optics/dofdigital/

John

I know DOF Is relative to CCD Size and this Camera has 1/3 Inch CCDS So Obviously its DOF WILL Only be the same as any other 1/3 Inch CCD Camera.. However I have been told that this Camera has remarkable DOF Capabilities and certainly when I viewed Dreamix Footage I was Convinced this was Proof of that.... HOW Is it this has overcome the CCD Size Barrier... I have NO Idea ...Only that is what I have been told And I Believe the Good folk here... IWould Like to be able to understand why this Camera has better DOF Any Takers ?

Added Typo Corrections to My Post

Apologies just "crashed" into this thread, so I might have missed something . . I must be loosing the plot here . . . but . ..

DOP = Director of Photography
DOF = Depth Of Field

. .. I don't understand Mark? Help!

Grazie

Im the one needs help cant belive i mid that typo wats rong wiv me pell chequer Imeant DOF I Think THE Link to scotts film Making page has given me gRANDIOSE Ideas of being a DOP PERHAPS A Y On the end would be more apt Thanks for pointing it out Grazie I would Probably never have noticed ;)

To those who know, my apologies for stating the obvious.
Shallow DOF and racking focus can add an enormous amount of impact. It can also kill a shot if it's done wrong. I saw some early HDV footage that at first looked just great until someone pointed out a small and very distracting problem. When you looked at it in HD the point of focus was slightly off, instead of being in the subjects eyes it was a few inches back on the tree they were leaning against.
Now if that was shot in SD, you'd have never noticed but in HD you can sure see it.
This is why film shoots have a guy just to keep the camera focussed where they want it and it's also why their cameras have rather expensive bolt on bits for setting focus. So if you're shooting people with shallow DOF you at the very least need a decent sized HD monitor so you can see just how the shot is going to look, The focus assist on the camera is a great help but I believe it doesn't work once the camera is in record so if you're trying to rack focus it's no help. If you're into that stuff you really need follow focus gear. A full set of kit for doing that right will double the price of the camera but it's money well spent, unlike video cameras that gear lasts for ever and seems to go up in value, a very old Arrie matte box fetched $3,000 at auction last week and that was considered a steal.

I think we'll have to wait for the Z1 to hit the streets before we see the appropriate adaptors for this camera, hopefully the stuff that fits the DVX100 can be adapted to the Sony cameras.
Actually I think that'd be one of my few criticism of the camera, proper ring gears for focus and zoom would have been very nice, well at least for focus. I'm certain looking at the lens it'll be easy enough it clamp one on but I'd bet that'll cost 5 times more than it would have cost to incorporate it in the lense to start with. Pretty minor gripe anyway.

Bob.

Speaking for Myself only.. I planned to film in HDV ..Then downgrade it to DV having the Benefits of Its DOF Abilities... Also Keeping Stock Footage or Personal Family type stuff ON HDV saving it till the Programs adapt more to HDV Footage.. Mean Time carry on Learning By Making Films... Spots advice to me once was to keep making Films and thats what Im trying to do to Improve...I would like to possibly to make a Follow Focus for it.... buying gear like that is usually so expensive !

Dreamix

I downloaded your work, and have just now, with great delight I might add, taken a look. Very cool. You are obviously a photographer. I delight in your framing, especially your framing, and the way you move the camera only when it becomes natural to do so, and the movement is part of the motionlessness…

I’m sure it’s a very cool camera; I’ll have one very soon, but your photographic eye transcends the equipment - I’m sure I would enjoy what you shoot using a pin hole camera! The FX1 in your hands becomes a fine instrument of art. Art is what counts, we shall not lose sight of that. Congratulations, great work, and thanks for sharing.

PS By the way, as it happens, as I watch you video, yet again, I’m listening (headphones) to:

Paco De Lucia, Al Di Meola and John McLaughlin - Manha de Carnival.

Very nice.

"Might it be that the bigger lens diameter would change something on it ? A can only say that with my VX2000E I have never been able to get such an incredible shallow DOF."

Actually the VX2000 is capable of getting even shallower DOF than the FX1 is. The VX2000 has a longer focal-length lens, going to 72mm as opposed to the FX1's 54mm.

If you want shallow DOF on the VX2000, zoom in to 100% telephoto and open the iris all the way. Frame your shot by moving the camera, not by zooming out. If you zoom out, your shallow-DOF look is *gone*. Stay full telephoto, wide-open iris (control exposure with ND filters if you need to) and you'll have quite shallow DOF with the VX2000, even shallower than the FX1 can do. The XL2 can get the shallowest DOF look because it has the longest stock lens (110mm).

"It is also possible to reduce the DOF by setting the backfocus incorrectly and then adjusting the regular focus for a sharp image.

This is demonstrable on for example an XL1/XL2 with the manual lens (which has a backfocus adjustment).

I wouldn't have believed it myself if I hadn't seen it. "

Yes you can certainly do that. An easier way to do it is to use an achromatic diopter lens, which also changes the front element focal point. Using a diopter lens lets you get close to the subject while being able to zoom in a bit. I can get shallow-DOF looks with the DVX even in a fairly small room by using a close-up lens and getting quite close (usually about 2' away). The diopter lets you focus closer than the camera normally otherwise would, and the closer you are to the subject, the shallower the DOF will be. I use a Nikon 5T close-up lens with a 72mm->62mm step-down ring.

"You only talked about optics. What would interest me and surely other people as well: How does the size of CCDs fit in here ? As apparently using bigger CCDs you can get a more shallow DOF ?"

I'm not coursedesign, but I can answer it. CCD size does not affect DOF. What CCD size does is it affects the field of view you get from any given lens. The larger the CCD, the larger the "window" onto the lens you can see, which means that the larger the CCD, the wider-angle any given focal length will appear to be.

What this means is, to get a tight shot on a large-CCD camera, you need a much more telephoto lens than you would need on a small-CCD camera. And that telephoto lens focal length is what causes the shallow-DOF effect.

On a 35mm movie camera, a typical 10:1 zoom lens focal length would be about 25mm to 250mm. On a 16mm movie camera, to get about the same field of view, you'd need a 10mm to 100mm zoom lens. Shorter focal lengths, which mean deeper DOF.

On a 1/3" video camera, to get the same field of view you'd need a 5mm to 50mm zoom lens.

On a 1/6" video camera, to get the same field of view you'd need a 2.5mm to 25mm lens.

So, when you're at the same distance to the subject, the 35mm movie camera needs a lens that's 250mm long to render the same field of view as the 1/6" camera does with a 25mm lens. Obviously the 250mm lens will deliver a much shallower DOF than the 25mm lens! Heck, on the 1/6" camera, it's longest telephoto that it can even get to is just 25mm, whereas on the 35mm camera it's very widest angle is 25mm. Obviously you'll get much shallower DOF with the 35mm camera.

It's not the sensor size, it's the focal length. Smaller sensors demand shorter focal length lenses to deliver an adequate field of view, and larger sensors demand longer focal length lenses. Longer focal length = shallower DOF.

All DOF is determined by the optics, not by the sensor. But the sensor dictates what optics are usable.

"Speaking for Myself only.. I planned to film in HDV ..Then downgrade it to DV having the Benefits of Its DOF Abilities"

Won't work. You'll have the same DOF whether in HD or DV mode.

Actually, to get technical, there will be a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny difference, because HDV will be able to resolve a little more detail a little longer, and won't cross the threshold from "in focus" to "out of focus" quite as soon as the DV mode will. But it will be basically imperceptible.

"The focus assist on the camera is a great help but I believe it doesn't work once the camera is in record so if you're trying to rack focus it's no help."

The autofocus is continuous (which is good when you need it and want it).

The rack focus is simply an electronic memory. Focus on where you want the end of your take to be focused on and press the button, then focus on what you want to start with, and at the right time press the rack focus button to move the focus to the other point.

The TRV-950 had a different concept. During a take you could put your finger on any object visible on the flip-out LCD, the camera would then shift focus to that object...

I believe they were referring to the magnified focus effect, as "focus assist". It works in pause mode, but as soon as you go to record, it pops back out to fullscreen mode. Would have been nice to be able to use it during recording as well.

"I believe they were referring to the magnified focus effect, as "focus assist". It works in pause mode, but as soon as you go to record, it pops back out to fullscreen mode. Would have been nice to be able to use it during recording as well."

Good thought, but then you'd need a highly visible indicator in the viewfinder so you knew you are looking at a magnified part of the image. Perhaps blinking the whole thing. Perhaps a downloadable firmware rev? :O)

Barry Green: Unfortunately I don't have longer any VX2000 to do some tests. But is your saying that the VX2000 has even shallower DOF based on theoretical values or on pratcial tests ? As with my VX2000 full zoom in, F2 I was not able to get such a shallow DOF as with the HDR-FX1.