HDV to Blu-ray: why is it recompressing?


NickHope wrote on 1/23/2011, 8:06 AM
Sorry, I've mis-led you. I've just checked and the old version of MPEG Tools in TMPGEnc Plus does not support transport streams at all. You could use the tools in TMPGEnc Xpress or VideoRedo. I think there are trial versions of both if you want to try it without buying. I must have used TMPGEnc Xpress. However it looks like there are some free tools around now such as this. Please let us know if you find one that works.
NickHope wrote on 1/23/2011, 8:10 AM
Even better than tsDemux that I just mentioned, try tsMuxeR which I see has a demux option and has a good reputation. It's mentioned frequently on the forum.
NickHope wrote on 1/23/2011, 8:40 AM
I just double-checked one of the .m2ts that TMPGEnc Authoring Works wrote, against some of the original HDV (1080-60i shot with Sony Z1P, captured with HDVSplit, cut and smart-rendered in Vegas Pro 8.0c). I can't see any difference at all at Best (Full) settings. Besides that it wrote the file way to quickly to be re-enoding it at the same time. It's definitely not recompressing. Haven't double-checked that DVDA 5.0b doesn't recompress the demuxed .m2v file, but in a single test I did in April '09, it didn't recompress.
Arthur.S wrote on 1/23/2011, 8:52 AM
The DVD template crossed my mind too Rob, but I couldn't find anything else there. Dropped TMPGEnc Plus 2.5

I was already experimenting with Tsdemux Nick (read; banging head on wall) It just would not do anything for me at all - may be because I'm on a 64 bit OS. Dropped Tsdemux.

Just tried Tsmux tahhh dahhhhhhhh!! Worked flawlessly, quickly....and most of all simply. :-)
The file when imported into DVDA gets a nice tick in 'optimise' which means it won't recompress. Thanks for the help all.
NickHope wrote on 1/23/2011, 9:46 AM
OK so I'll remove tsDemux as a recommendation.

Now then, I noticed that tsMuxeR has an option to build a Blu-ray file structure, so I thought I'd see if I could get TMPGEnc Authoring Works out of the mix completely and do the whole smart-rendering thing with free tools. This is what I tried...

1. Smart-rendered HDV to elementary streams in Vegas Pro 10.0c (starting with an HDV template but choosing elementary streams from the System tab in the custom render settings)
2. Built a simple Blu-ray set of folders with tsMuxeR (no menus)
3. Put the 00000.m2ts back into tsMuxeR and demuxed it to 00000.track_4113.mpv
4. Renamed that to 00000.m2v and put it in a "Single Movie" project in DVDA 5.0b
5. Clicked "Make Blu-ray Disc"

Sadly it says that 00000.m2v is going to get recompressed.

Finally I re-checked the process going via TMPGEnc Authoring Works and there is no recompression reported in DVDA. I don't know what TAW is doing to the file that tsMuxeR doesn't do, but it's somehow making the file compliant in a way that keeps DVDA happy.
Arthur.S wrote on 1/24/2011, 2:47 AM
Apart from better quality Nick, this workflow through TAW4 then tsmux saves an awful lot of time re-rendering to either m2v or m2ts for DVDA. Only problem is the 2 extra 25gig files produced. But the process is so quick you can always delete the copies after completion - just keep the original.
NickHope wrote on 1/24/2011, 3:49 AM
Yes, it's much quicker and it's not a problem to delete those extra files.

If anyone cares about this issue then please submit a product suggestion for it. Adobe Encore and TMPGEnc Authoring Works can smart render HDV to Blu-ray, so DVDA should be able to also. It will probably get ignored but you never know.
goodrichm wrote on 1/24/2011, 6:09 AM
It looks like Scorpiopod has such a script (take a look at the 3rd post in this thread), but he hasn't been around for a while and his email link is disabled. Does anyone still know him? Or could anyone write a script that outputs Vegas markers as a text file of frame numbers? Edit: See later post for the required script

Just saw this and wanted everyone to know that our friend Scorpiopod, Eugene Kosarovich, hasn't been seen on the forum because in Oct 09 he passed away while asleep at home in his 40's. It was a complete surprise to everybody as he complained of no illnesses. It still saddens me greatly to think about the whole ordeal...MG

NickHope wrote on 1/24/2011, 7:35 AM
Very sorry to hear that goodrichm. RIP Eugene.
Arthur.S wrote on 1/24/2011, 8:08 AM
Didn't know the guy, but sorry to hear that news.

Arthur.S wrote on 1/25/2011, 12:00 PM
Typical....looking forward to using this workflow for the first time.....the project was too big by half a gig. :-( Think that's called sod's law. ;-)
paul_w wrote on 1/27/2011, 7:00 AM
For what its worth, i got TMPGEnc Authoring to make blue ray disks (and dvds) and i have to say its is totally and by far better to use in all respects to sonys DVDA! I tried to get on with DVDA for a long time, i did get it work eventually but there are simply way too many options,ticks, check parameters to slow you down - and of course the recompression to blueray from HDV as mentioned above. TMPGEnc Authoring is simply way ahead - very simple (and easy to customise). Love it.
So if you want to actually get the job done, get TMPGEnc Authoring. If you'd rather hack, tinker, mess about with all the settings until it doesnt have to recompress everything and loosing your spare time in the process.... get DVDA. Sorry Sony. I tried. I really tried..
You know what, Vegas pro is similar... Its ok if you're bill gates with a total geek like logical mind... but if you are trying to be artistic in any way, this overload of options is a killer. Makes me want to get a Mac and say bye bye.
TMPGEnc Authoring = good (except internet connection required, checks licence once a month).
mekelly wrote on 1/27/2011, 7:49 AM
I just downloaded a trial copy of TMPGenc Authoring, took a short .mt2 clip from my HV20 and created a BR Folder (wrote the file to hard drive, but didn't burn a disk). I took the same clip and did the same thing with DVDA. Although DVDA did recompress the file, I honestly didn't see any difference in quality.

Granted, I watched it on a 19" LCD monitor, but on a 60" plasma, but really no difference to my eye.

So, while I've already submitted a product request to Sony to have DVDA mimic TMPGenc's functionality, I am not as upset as I was before, given that I expected more quality loss.
Laurence wrote on 1/27/2011, 2:56 PM
Every non-smart-rendered generation that isn't lossless or in a high quality editing codec is going to add a little more damage. To me there is something incredibly cool about having (for the most part) one data compression stage as the video is shot and compressed to tape or flash memory, and then no more generations added all the way through the editing and burning to final Blu-ray.
PeterDuke wrote on 1/27/2011, 4:59 PM
"TMPGEnc Authoring = good (except internet connection required, checks licence once a month)."

What a bummer!

More and more software requires you to have an umbilical cord to the internet as the only way to activate. Periodic checking is sheer paranoia.

Internet = potential security threats, viruses, etc, with perpetual updates to combat them and the need to install sometimes predatory security software with their overheads in CPU usage etc.

I have two PCs: one for internet access and miscellaneous work and the other for video editing. The latter has no internet access nor antivirus software installed. I don't update Windows. Transferring data from one to the other via USB or flash drive is a bit of a pain that I put up with.
NickHope wrote on 1/27/2011, 10:06 PM
>> TMPGEnc Authoring ... is totally and by far better to use in all respects to sonys DVDA! <<

I agree except:

1. It will only do 2 subtitle tracks, and I need 3 :(
2. It will not, as far as I can tell, let you put "resume" in a menu, like DVDA will, which I find a big disadvantage.

I have emailed the TMPGEnc people to request fixes to both of those. If anyone else wants either of those features then please email them too! The more requests, the more likely they will fix it.

Talking of which, I'll let the tsDemuxer people know about TAW's demuxed Blu-ray stream being more "compatible" in DVDA than theirs. Maybe they can tweak something so that people don't need to spend the money on TAW.
paul_w wrote on 1/28/2011, 3:16 AM
Nick, good points made. I will ask them for those fixes too.
PeterDuke, I remove the internet lan cable during normal operation, plug it in just for the licence check once a month - its a pain, but it works, its very quick. Spoke to the guys at TMPG and they did say they would look at this and try to find a better solution. Maybe just extend the check to 3 months.
DGates wrote on 4/6/2011, 4:29 PM
"DVD Architect sucks enormously and I wish SCS would fix it."


I reluctantly keep using it, only because it meets my meager needs. I wish I could buy a standalone version of Encore, without having to purchase Premiere. DVDA just isn't pro level by any stretch.

The DVDA forum here is like a ghost town, so I don't think Sony cares to give it a much needed make-over.
NickHope wrote on 4/7/2011, 12:40 AM
That's not actually what I said. What sucks enormously is the fact that it always recompresses HDV. Most of the rest of the program works OK for me, although I'm not a fan of the interface/workflow.
Julius_ wrote on 9/28/2011, 10:11 PM
Sorry to bring this post back to life.
I'm just wondering if any progress has been made with DVDA? (is it still recompressing?)

I just recently tried DVDA V5.2 and my footage was recompressing. Tried TAW and wow, no re-compressing.
I love to use DVDA to create my menus (I couldn't get TAW to create me a nice menu, then again, I gave up after a few minutes).

My next option is to try the tsMuxeR suggestion, but if I can avoid this extra step...

NickHope wrote on 9/28/2011, 10:29 PM
I never got around to contacting the tsDemuxer people to see if they can tweak something. As far as I know their demuxed Blu-ray stream will still recompress in DVDA.
malowz wrote on 9/30/2011, 11:56 AM
if i recall, HDV have a incompatible mpeg2 profile/level of BD.

tried to do a BD in scenarist HDMV, from demuxed HDV file. accused incompatible profile
R0cky wrote on 9/30/2011, 1:50 PM
I was able to find a setup to not recompress HDV in Encore once upon a time - forget what it was as I generally always render at least level/gamma changes.

NickHope wrote on 9/30/2011, 11:59 PM
What would "incompatible profile/level" mean, exactly, in terms of MPEG-2? It's not like H.264 in terms of profiles/levels, is it?

The Blu-ray spec supports 1440x1080i @ 25fps or 29.97fps at well over HDV's bit rate. I don't see why it should recompress. Maybe something really complicated needs to be done to the MPEG-2 stream to make it compliant, but I bet it's just something minor in the header. If Encore and TAW can do it then DVDA should be able to as well. I doubt those programs are creating non-compliant discs, and even if they are officially non-compliant, they still work.