Help. Trying to find $150 worth...

klyon wrote on 4/24/2004, 5:54 PM
...of audio improvements in Vegas 5.
I'm just off the road and late to the discussion. I know that the only two things I *really* wanted -- Rewire and OMF support -- didn't make it.
(Peter: the NLE vs. DAW "audio recording as capture" argument is disingenuous to say the least. Rewire would be much more accurately defined as a "capture" device than are live recording capabilities: nobody drags their computer to the video shoot and uses a camera like a microphone. But it's a silly distinction anyway...)
C'est la vie. But I've loved Vegas since it saved me from the work inefficency of Pro Tools years ago.
So I downloaded the trial.
A Franklin and a half for bus to bus routing and auto input monitoring, event reverse and a mono switch that should have been there from the start?
Software input monitoring, to me, is like cold fusion in a mayonaisse jar: an unattainable grail.
(Or, at best, like a dog dancing: it's not done well, but the wonder is that it's done at all.)
I tried it with the best stable latency I get with Vegas with fairly normal sized projects -- 5ms -- and it's great... if you like singing through a flanger.
Perhaps I need a faster computer and if it makes others happy I'm all for it. But it seems that with 1.5ms worth of conversion on either side and whatever the software adds...
Anyway, what am I missing? Is it really only worthwhile if you use a hardware controller? And what happens if you just decide to sit out an upgrade?


thomaskay wrote on 4/24/2004, 6:01 PM
"I tried it with the best stable latency I get with Vegas with fairly normal sized projects -- 5ms -- and it's great... if you like singing through a flanger."

It's not just me. I thought I was the only one. I assume I am doing something wrong but I can't figure out what.

Geoff_Wood wrote on 4/24/2004, 6:47 PM
What happens if you set for a bigger latency, wrt input monitoring artifacts ?

I mean, miniscule latency isn't the be-all and end-all, given that the correct compensation is applied where necessary.

StepD wrote on 4/24/2004, 6:58 PM
>>and it's great... if you like singing through a flanger.

You're supposed to monitor through hardware *or* software, not both. When you use software monitoring, you need to mute the outputs on your audio interface's mixer, which is obviously closer to zero latency than software monitoring; hence, the flanging if you're monitoring through both. BTW, with a good audio interface, software monitoring is not a holy grail, it's been a reality for a while now.
klyon wrote on 4/24/2004, 7:11 PM
I wasn't monitoring through both. Perhaps "flanger" was a bad word choice. It's the delay I was talking about. Software monitoring is a reality, but not a perfect one. Hardware is better. In music, as you know, milliseconds matter.
StepD wrote on 4/24/2004, 8:16 PM
What's your audio interface? Good drivers make a big difference. A 64 sample setting (a few ms) with my Delta 1010 feels instantaneous monitoring through DX/VST effects in Vegas, SONAR and Logic (guitar, bass, vocals). And I'm very picky. I'd never go back.
klyon wrote on 4/24/2004, 8:41 PM
My interface is an Echo Mona; it only goes as low as 128 samples. And 256 is where it most reliably sits. So maybe there's the rub. (It does have direct monitoring, which works great and required no software upgrade).
But I'm glad that the auto input has been a substantial success in your case (and that of others) and I thank you for your reply.
I'm just trying to decide if it's worth throwing another $150 into an upgrade that will not materially affect my work situation (a lot of that development money is, no doubt, going into video features) when the company has not shown itself to be very receptive to user input.
By this I mean, and I have no exact figures, it seems that Rewire was one of the most universally requested features in the "tell us what you want:" thread and it has been roundly ignored in version after version -- with the official "no promises" being the only answer to questions involving the program's future.
thomaskay wrote on 4/24/2004, 10:25 PM
Well, I have a RME Hammerfall with set at 12ms. I still get the "flanging". I set the input to auto (muting my mixer that I use for monitoring). I have another thread about this very topic (Trouble with Input Monitoring) so I won't rehash it here. Hopefully I'll find the answer. Until then, I'm back to monitoring via my mixer.

PipelineAudio wrote on 4/25/2004, 7:49 AM
I agree that software monitoring is not in many cases the way to go but its a good second step. Im still monitoring thru my mixer as well. thomaskay, did you turn monitoring off in your card yet?
drbam wrote on 4/25/2004, 8:39 AM
Punch on the fly – this feature is easily worth $150 for me. From the reports so far, increased performance and stability seem to be quite apparent. Since Vegas 4 was somewhat sluggish compared to Vegas 3 (on my system), the upgrade is pretty much a no brainer for me. Hell, I've wasted $150 on a night out at a lousy restaurant and a lame movie!


Rednroll wrote on 4/25/2004, 8:52 AM
Save your $150. Obviously this is a big investment for you. There were some well longing for eccential pro features added and most pros won't even blink an eye at the $150 for hardware control support. Infact they'll probably go out and be willing to spend 20 times that for a good hardware control surface. They'll actually be thankful, because they remember the days of paying $60k for a 24 track 2" machine, $5000 per 8 tracks of ADAT or DA-88 in addition to having to spend another $10-20K on a half way decent mixing board. Vegas now makes this all possible with a $600 computer and a $600 piece of software. I also, wanted rewire and omf support. Am I disappointed it didn't make it in there?...Yes Do I have other alternatives in Vegas to accomplish the same kind of functionality in both rewire and omf? Yes. Do I have alternatives previously within Vegas for hardware controler support? No.

Another thing, are you saying that you can hear a delay with a 5mS Latency? Because the human ear cannot hear 2 distinct sounds unless they're approaching the magnitude of 20 mS difference. Most pros that have used a simple delay know and have experienced this simple fact. So this is pretty much showing me you're full of crap and haven't used Vegas outside of your own bedroom for recording. So please save your $150, I know that's a good six months of savings in your line of work. And yes, I think I will have fries with that today.....thank you.
Arnar wrote on 4/25/2004, 9:04 AM
"this is pretty much showing me you're full of crap and haven't used Vegas outside of your own bedroom for recording. So please save your $150, I know that's a good six months of savings in your line of work. And yes, I think I will have fries with that today.....thank you."

Red , ...I know you are an intelligent guy , no doubt.'
You also seem to know your stuff indside out , granted.
We have had our differences but since then i have come to respect your knowledge and input to the is forum , not to mention your work as a beta tester for SF.
But you need to work on your social skills bigtime.

I do not understand why you resort to this kind of talk even though you find that you wholeheartedly disagree with someone.
Why be so condescending?
Maybe its just your writing style and im getting it all wrong?

And why do you have such discontent for bedroom musicians?
You do realise that bedroom musicians are the "pro´s" of the future.
Do you really need a certain income to be eligible for commenting on this board.

Seriosuly i mean no disrepect and i dont want to argue but i find this to be a flaw on someone that seems pretty cool in most aspects!?


Besides to my best knowledge you will not hear a "delay " at 5 ms but you can hear the comb filtering.
And you will hear phasing long before you hit the 20 -40 ms mark where you start to hear "two distinct sounds"

Rednroll wrote on 4/25/2004, 9:17 AM
A condensending post, deserves the same in a response and that's what the original post was, that's my viewpoint, so there should be no confusion as my position.

A 5mS delay will give you the noticeble flanging....or more appropriately term, "phasing", because flanging is a moving delay time phasing. But that was not the problem, because the phasing would mean that there is 2 of the same sources being played at the same time. Thomaskay has a phasing problem, but Klylon is trying to point out something totally different, which I'm pointing out is not an issue with his explaination.
Arnar wrote on 4/25/2004, 9:19 AM
Ok, i understand.
thomaskay wrote on 4/25/2004, 9:56 AM
thomaskay, did you turn monitoring off in your card yet?

My RME card has one window in which to go to. The only option to turn monitoring on or off deals with MME and not ASIO. Yes, it is turned off. But regardless, I am using ASIO at 12 ms.

This seems like a user error problem. I just haven't found my error as of yet. And I repeat - I get the same thing with Cubase SX. Oh well.
PipelineAudio wrote on 4/25/2004, 11:25 AM
isnt SHE supposed to pay for dinner and a movie?
PipelineAudio wrote on 4/25/2004, 11:29 AM
Hold on now...5 mS of latency CAN make for big trouble in some situations. Put some headphones on and plug a mic into your mic pre into a delay 100% wet. Now go up from 1 mS and sometimes the sound outside the cans will get weird with the sound inside the cans. Theres ways to deal with it, but it can be a problem. I find that going UP to 12 mS can usually solve the problem. At 24 mS tho the guitarist cant play any longer
PipelineAudio wrote on 4/25/2004, 11:32 AM
thomasky, if you get bored search back to the vegas 3 days when I owned a pair of digi 9652's before going to the HDSP9652's. There were a lot of weird issues and something in there might be a clue

The problems reported there in vegas 3 do not happen in vegas 5 regarding the random freezing. Itll still freeze, but not in the same way
klyon wrote on 4/25/2004, 1:09 PM
wow, red. Tough love for sure. I don't have a day job, if that's important to you. I never have. I do have two gold records, several close, and a long list of tours. There's a piece I mixed in the Whitney Museum right now and a show on the Discovery Channel for which I composed and recorded the soundtrack. Most of my work has been in those places where 5ms delay in the signal chain would seem like a boulder in the road.
It's more about the attitude than the money, as far as the upgrade goes. Attitudes don't get much worse than yours -- it seems -- but I'd be glad to sit and talk about this stuff if we're ever in the same area. I'll be on the road all next month with Evan Dando; maybe we'll be playing near where you live and we can have a drink without the danger of this format making anyone seem "condescending."
thomaskay wrote on 4/25/2004, 1:24 PM

Just in case our problem is the same (as far as input monitoring is concerned), if you do find a correction, please post back to the board and I will do the same.

But to chime in on the worth of the upgrade, the "on the fly" punch in seems worth it if you are tracking into Vegas. What I use to do is open a second track and then merge. But if I'm charging by the hour, I think the punch in feature is more time efficient. If you are not charging and just recording your own music, well...

What is your main application for Vegas?
Rednroll wrote on 4/25/2004, 7:00 PM
Great Klyon, good to hear about all the gold records. Then if you read the features list and explore the demo a few minutes more, you should have no problem finding the $150 worth you're looking for when it comes to hardware support and realtime automation recording added to Vegas 5. No there's no rewire or omf support yet, but if you check up on midi beat clock or Smpte sync and a utility called EDLconvertpro then you'll have no problems getting that either.
Weevil wrote on 4/25/2004, 10:52 PM
Great Klyon, good to hear about all the gold records...I’m all for increasing the range and diversity of knowledgeable opinions around here.

Please stick around.
klyon wrote on 4/26/2004, 11:30 AM
Sorry for coming across like a big shot; I was goaded into it. I’m just a working musician, nothing more, with all the ups and downs that implies. And it’s no big deal: my friend Gary Mallaber could laugh at two gold records. He has forty. But he wouldn’t.
Good musicians don’t laugh at musicians. Or insult them.
But whether anyone thinks that there aren’t musicians who can hear/feel five milliseconds delay (believe me, there are) or whether this or that widely requested feature did or ever does make it into a program are beside the point.
What bothers me is the mystery stance. You know, “will we implement it? Maybe. Who knows? Our policy is not to say... give us your money and take your chances.”
It just seems unprofessional.
When I was researching alternatives, I found that Samplitude was the only other major application without Rewire. I sent them an email asking about it’s future implementation. In fifteen minutes I received a reply – from Germany – saying, “yes, absolutely, next revision” and giving me a date.
That’s professional.
Do I want to use Samplitude? No. I hated the interface.
I love Vegas. And to answer your question, Thomaskay, I use it for anything involving picture, mixing of anything I haven’t created in another program (once again, for me pre-production/creation *are* production and I have a piece half-mixed by the time it’s written), and the big one, the blue ribbon, gold medal, red letter Vegas audio advantage:
Nothing anywhere anytime comes close to Vegas in the way it handles overdubs, multiple takes, and vocal comps.
Weevil wrote on 4/26/2004, 5:03 PM
...Errr...I wasn’t being sarcastic (for once).

Red is a cantankerous, grumpy bugger who likes to put his opinion across really strongly. But he’s okay, that’s just his shtick. Don’t worry about it, just do your thing.

I’m serious, the more people we can get in here with some degree of real, outside world success the better.
Rednroll wrote on 4/26/2004, 5:12 PM
Yeah, that's just my "shtick", so don't take it too personal, it's part of my Detroit attitude. If you got a problem with it, stop on by and we'll have a few beers and I'll throw you a Jimmy Hoffa going away party.

I use to be one of a kind, but now that I've visited the Vegas Video forums, and have read a few of Billyboy's posts, I have to sit back and think sometimes and wonder, "did I write that?". Man that guy is right on, in my opinion.