HEVC 10-Bit 422 and 420: Howsit Going, Magix [434 update below]?

AVsupport wrote on 12/8/2020, 4:27 PM

Sony has released an update to Catalyst Browse which now enables full support for XAVC-HS 10-Bit in both 422 and 420 flavours. All that's required is online registration of your camera / serial to make this happen, and it's free of charge.

HEVC is the only way to shoot up to 4K 100fps with audio in-camera [Sony A7SM3] , but unfortunately there's no 100 fps file output in Browse. HEVC is also ideal to preserve quality in Long-Form shoots, but needs good GPU support to make it work, or proxy workflow.

This hasn't really been working for a while now, and it's important to me to see this fixed. Where are we at?

Last changed by AVsupport

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

32GB (4x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

Crucial BX500 1TB EDIT 3D NAND SATA 2.5-inch SSD

2x 4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.

Comments

lenard wrote on 12/8/2020, 7:37 PM

That is a strange one. Sony taking so long to support their own camera, it doesn't make Magix look that bad. I hope to see at minimum 420 support and also Nvidia 3000 GPU series support in the next update. Infact I know Magix won't let us like that! 🙏

Teagan wrote on 12/8/2020, 7:41 PM

To my knowledge HEVC 4:2:2 is outside of the codec's specifications. I know of one Canon camera that gets around this by modifying the codec slightly, though.

HEVC is a delivery codec (which is almost always 4:2:0) but I would agree that I would like it to capture in, especially 4:2:2 since HEVC is about 2x more efficient than h.264.

lenard wrote on 12/8/2020, 7:46 PM

You can't edit in 4:2:2 HEVC though, and last I knew VP18 was terrible at creating proxies. so the best workflow may be using Catalyst to create intermediates for Vegas anyway. It's the 4:2:0 that can take advantage of GPU decode which is the real failing

AVsupport wrote on 12/9/2020, 6:09 AM

HEVC is here to stay. It's the obvious technological continuation to where AVC has ended with FHD. The advent of 4K and the associated data during the acquisition process and also delivery needed a better tool. 422 is legit, albeit not hardware supported, for now. Even if it can't be played, it needs to be integrated so it can be edited, via proxies. Once it's in the sysyem, maybe HappyOtter can provide some answers.

Will see if apple silicon changes the drive. But either way, 420 is doable right now, and needs to work, properly, GPU supported, at least.

Last changed by AVsupport on 12/9/2020, 6:10 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

32GB (4x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

Crucial BX500 1TB EDIT 3D NAND SATA 2.5-inch SSD

2x 4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.

lenard wrote on 12/9/2020, 6:07 PM

I do wonder if camera manufacturers are partially at fault, and should be offering raw options or maybe even using BRAW (if licencing is acceptable) to be able to provide extended colour and quality options but also allow easy timeline playback, with a 422 HEVC secondry option. The fact that Nvidia and AMD both decided to not support 422 and now maybe won't, if at all for years is a problem. 422 HEVC is still too new in consumer devices for the optimal solution to rise up.

Braw is even further off from being a reality on VegasPro but broadly speaking the future should be raw formats to get around the legal problems causing the lack of support for 422 AVC/HEVC in GPU

AVsupport wrote on 12/9/2020, 8:05 PM

the good news @lenard is that the A7SM3 does output RAW and one could choose an external recorder once one becomes compatible, but this doesn't fix the obvious issue that this software is a video editor and as such it's primary function is to at least read and import a variety of video formats. If this has to do with me having to pay a $0.10 license fee, OK.

However, at this moment I want to point out that VLC can play both HEVC 10Bit 422 and 420 files (ps I didn't have to pay for any license fees through using VLC):

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

32GB (4x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

Crucial BX500 1TB EDIT 3D NAND SATA 2.5-inch SSD

2x 4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.

AVsupport wrote on 1/26/2021, 8:43 PM

just updated to the latest release VP 18.434 and nVidia Studio drivers, retesting my 4K HEVC 10-Bit 422 and 420 from my Sony A7Siii:

420: can add to project and load, but GPU acceleration seems missing. (GTX1060/6)

422: not able to add to project, or play. but will not crash when tried to open (is that the good news?)

not using legacy. iGPU disabled in BIOS.

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

32GB (4x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

Crucial BX500 1TB EDIT 3D NAND SATA 2.5-inch SSD

2x 4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.

RogerS wrote on 1/26/2021, 9:03 PM

If you can make a short sample available I'm happy to test.

AVsupport wrote on 1/26/2021, 9:15 PM

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-7RDXnHrbJui-2RsllIHTHAbtOCtVkbB/view?usp=sharing

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

32GB (4x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

Crucial BX500 1TB EDIT 3D NAND SATA 2.5-inch SSD

2x 4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.

RogerS wrote on 1/27/2021, 1:30 AM

@AVsupport @fr0sty Thank you.

I was able to confirm that the HEVC 4:2:2 file does not open or play with a system that has an Intel iGPU decoder either. It didn't work normally or when legacy HEVC was checked. It didn't work with hardware decoding off. "The application does not support this file type"

Here's MediaInfo for it:

General
Complete name                  : C:\Users\RS\Desktop\AVS_20201108_0052_HEVC10Bit4K422.MP4
Format                         : XAVC
Codec ID                       : XAVC (XAVC/mp42/iso2/nras)
File size                      : 352 MiB
Duration                       : 26 s 400 ms
Overall bit rate               : 112 Mb/s
Encoded date                   : UTC 2020-11-07 22:09:37
Tagged date                    : UTC 2020-11-07 22:09:37

Video
ID                             : 1
Format                         : HEVC
Format/Info                    : High Efficiency Video Coding
Format profile                 : Format Range@L5.1@High
Codec ID                       : hvc1
Codec ID/Info                  : High Efficiency Video Coding
Duration                       : 26 s 400 ms
Bit rate                       : 97.3 Mb/s
Width                          : 3 840 pixels
Height                         : 2 160 pixels
Display aspect ratio           : 16:9
Frame rate mode                : Constant
Frame rate                     : 50.000 FPS
Color space                    : YUV
Chroma subsampling             : 4:2:2
Bit depth                      : 10 bits
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)             : 0.235
Stream size                    : 306 MiB (87%)
Encoded date                   : UTC 2020-11-07 22:09:37
Tagged date                    : UTC 2020-11-07 22:09:37
Color range                    : Full
Codec configuration box        : hvcC

Audio
ID                             : 2
Format                         : PCM
Format settings                : Big / Signed
Codec ID                       : twos
Duration                       : 26 s 400 ms
Bit rate mode                  : Constant
Bit rate                       : 1 536 kb/s
Channel(s)                     : 2 channels
Sampling rate                  : 48.0 kHz
Bit depth                      : 16 bits
Stream size                    : 4.83 MiB (1%)
Encoded date                   : UTC 2020-11-07 22:09:37
Tagged date                    : UTC 2020-11-07 22:09:37

Other
Type                           : meta
Duration                       : 26 s 400 ms

JN- wrote on 1/27/2021, 3:07 AM

@AVsupport @RogerS

I tested the hevc 422 file in VP 18, 17 and 16. It wouldn't load in 18 or 17. If I copied the video and converted the audio to AAC using my ffmpeg based util "Copies Video Converts Audio to AAC" (see my signature) it loaded in VP17 but the video looked wonky.

I had no problem loading the original clip, no converting, into VP16. The Video and audio play fine, but of course very low fps playback rate.

All tested on my laptop, uses Nvidia GTX 1070, no intel iGPU available, locked off. See signature.

Basically, back to the future!

Last changed by JN- on 1/27/2021, 4:06 AM, changed a total of 3 times.

---------------------------------------------

VFR2CFR, Variable frame rate to Constant frame rate link here.

Copies Video Converts Audio to AAC, link here.

Benchmarking thread

Codec Render Quality tables

---------------------------------------------

PC ... Corsair case, own build ...

CPU .. i9 9900K, iGpu UHD 630

Memory .. 32GB DDR4

Graphics card .. MSI RTX 2080 ti

Graphics driver .. latest studio

PSU .. Corsair 850i

Mboard .. Asus Z390 Code

 

Laptop ... (Acer Predator G9-793-77AC)

CPU .. i7-6700HQ Skylake-H

Memory ..32 GB DDR4, was previously 16 GB

Graphics card .. Nvidia GTX 1070

Graphics driver .. latest studio

RogerS wrote on 1/27/2021, 3:18 AM

Hi JN-, thanks for that test. I didn't think to try 16. I got it to load but I wouldn't say it played fine. Audio is good.
I see a strange partially B&W rainbow pattern on the video screenshot

@VEGASHeman Would you mind taking a look at this A7sIII HEVC file? It's downloadable two posts above this one.

JN- wrote on 1/27/2021, 3:27 AM

@RogerS Definitely no audio or visual issues, but of course on that laptop very jerky, low fps playback.

---------------------------------------------

VFR2CFR, Variable frame rate to Constant frame rate link here.

Copies Video Converts Audio to AAC, link here.

Benchmarking thread

Codec Render Quality tables

---------------------------------------------

PC ... Corsair case, own build ...

CPU .. i9 9900K, iGpu UHD 630

Memory .. 32GB DDR4

Graphics card .. MSI RTX 2080 ti

Graphics driver .. latest studio

PSU .. Corsair 850i

Mboard .. Asus Z390 Code

 

Laptop ... (Acer Predator G9-793-77AC)

CPU .. i7-6700HQ Skylake-H

Memory ..32 GB DDR4, was previously 16 GB

Graphics card .. Nvidia GTX 1070

Graphics driver .. latest studio

wwaag wrote on 1/27/2021, 12:38 PM

For the time being, one can always use the ImportAssist tool in HappyOtterScripts to transcode the file into something that Vegas can import. Here's a demo of a conversion to ProRes422HQ.

You can downloaded the transcoded file at https://www.dropbox.com/s/0a73uy2tylmjhy8/AVS_20201108_0052_HEVC10Bit4K422-Transcoded.mov?dl=0

I also did a transcode to MagicYUV 10bit 422 which actually has better timeline performance than the ProRes file. However, the file size jumped from 1.72GB to 6.94GB.

AKA the HappyOtter at https://tools4vegas.com/. System 1: Intel i7-8700k with HD 630 graphics plus an Nvidia 1050ti graphics card. System 2: Intel i7-3770k with HD 4000 graphics plus an AMD RX550 graphics card. Current cameras include Panasonic FZ2500, GoPro Hero5 Black plus a myriad of smartPhone, pocket cameras, video cameras and film cameras going back to the original Nikon S.

AVsupport wrote on 1/27/2021, 4:07 PM

Testing this with pre-VP18 versions may be interesting, but won't really get us anywhere as I believe this is a problem with the current so4compoundplug.

Warned that HEVC is definitely the direction camera manufacturers are embracing, not much progress is visible in this update to support the feeling of crippling neglect for those that are not necessarily interested in the new post suite, but would rather wish to see continued love and dedication to the core product being a video editor.

@wwaag thanks for pointing this out, but I definitely don't want to have to convert HEVC. If I want big fast files I can choose to record Intra. HEVC was/would be/is my format of choice (absolution to XAVCS) when shooting long format/highres/HFR with an associated proxy workflow in the edit.

I have a current support ticket which has been dragging on for months, with the last delayed response asking me if the new version has fixed the problems... huh???

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

32GB (4x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

Crucial BX500 1TB EDIT 3D NAND SATA 2.5-inch SSD

2x 4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.

AVsupport wrote on 1/27/2021, 7:31 PM

For comparison, here's a HEVC 10-Bit 4K 420

https://drive.google.com/file/d/164PaIoVuMoc3Q7exmuoQjumVo2QPFwhg/view?usp=sharing

do yourself a favour and compare playback performance in VP18 and Mediaplayer:

TLDR: in Mediaplayer, playback CPU drops down to <20% where it's obvious with GPU running >30%. I call this proper GPU support.

 

 

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

32GB (4x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

Crucial BX500 1TB EDIT 3D NAND SATA 2.5-inch SSD

2x 4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.

RogerS wrote on 1/27/2021, 8:44 PM

Thanks for sharing these files- very helpful for testing with. I'd caution against comparing NLEs and Media Player as they are doing fundamentally different things. Media players can take shortcuts that sacrifice accuracy. Can you compare with Resolve, Premiere or other peers to Vegas? [In your graph there is no activity for decode- so the GPU isn't doing hardware decoding?]

Still, Magix team has said here that performance upgrades are in the works to facilitate support for raw video and other modern formats. Hopefully that will increase performance with HEVC and 10-bit, too.

I downloaded and played it back here. On a 25p timeline (assuming you're intending to slow it down; can't think of a good use for 4K50p) I'm at around 23-25fps at best/full in 8-bit mode. It is taxing the CPU (80%+) but my iGPU is also doing decoding. I'd say this is usable for editing on a system similar to or better than mine.

Bump up to 32-bit video levels (color correction time!) and it is only at 10fps for best/full. It's fluid at preview/auto. I then added a technical correction LUT for s-log 3 (Leeming) and curves and performance drops- still around 21fps at preview/auto.


MPC is at 20% CPU and 95% GPU with lots of decoding and 3D activity on my iGPU, so playback performance is very good.


On the 4:2:2 file as there is no hardware decoding the CPU is at 100%.

RogerS wrote on 1/27/2021, 9:11 PM


Nice footage by the way. The 10-bit can withstand all kinds of adjustments.

lenard wrote on 1/27/2021, 9:41 PM

Thanks for sharing these files- very helpful for testing with. I'd caution against comparing NLEs and Media Player as they are doing fundamentally different things. Media players can take shortcuts that sacrifice accuracy. Can you compare with Resolve, Premiere or other peers to Vegas? [In your graph there is no activity for decode- so the GPU isn't doing hardware decoding?]

 

To see how this file would play would be to turn off gpu decode and load in a regular 420 4K50 HEVC. There's a lot more information to process in the 422 though. I tried resolve and premiere, resolve has the better performance but both editors playback without dropping frames. Resolve shows the fps at the top (50) and Premiere has the green light next to the counter that changes colours on dropped frames.

On my last gen 6core ryzen cpu it's red lining the cpu just on playback (with cuts and slices removed to prevent ram caching) Resolve would be usable as it favours GPU, Premiere I am guessing only with proxies. Anyone buying a purpose machine for editing would start out with cpu no lower than 8core and that's going to work fine. My recollection is that with Vegas no amount of CPU was helping as vegas refused to use all the cpu, so ryzen 3900/3950 owners were having playback problems

The problem with Vegas is not something that can be fixed without desktop GPU's coming out with 422 decode. Vegas can't do what resolve and Premiere are doing, it requires an overhaul of the core framework, and Magix to this date are reticent to modify it. Everything they've done thus far are bolt on solutions.

 

AVsupport wrote on 1/27/2021, 11:10 PM

I do know that (currently) there's no hardware support for 10-Bit HEVC 422 as this has been 'overlooked' as a next step format; however, I should still be able to load and work with HEVC 422 if I choose a proxy workflow.

And @RogerS the 50/60p seems to be a new Sony flavour for HEVC (there's no 25or 30 options in latest A7S3 camera); looks like that's where things are heading, whatever the timeline.

The free version of Resolve doesn't do 10-Bit HEVC, and I'm definitely not giving a cent to Adobe.

Wondering if someone knows how to change the container format for the 10-bit 422 into MXF without changing the content to see whether that would load.

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

32GB (4x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

Crucial BX500 1TB EDIT 3D NAND SATA 2.5-inch SSD

2x 4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.

RogerS wrote on 1/27/2021, 11:43 PM

I have cause for optimism that as Vegas looks to accept raw formats there has to be an overhaul of the display system to match. My hope is that we do away with the 8-bit/32-bit modes and move entirely to an internally high-bit system that is fully GPU accelerated (not just GPU decode). We've got to be able to edit 10 bit+ footage in high-precision modes without big performance penalities.

That's interesting Sony isn't providing 25 or 30p in this format. As higher frame rates and shutter speeds have a different look to them, I would personally shoot in 10-bit 24p and just slow down from 60 or 120 for special effect. That's what I currently do with my 8-bit Sonys, anyway.

(If I recall my recent tests right, I don't think Resolve does any 4:2:2 in the free version, so container changing won't help)

https://www.sony.com/electronics/interchangeable-lens-cameras/ilce-7sm3/specifications
MOVIE RECORDING SYSTEM (XAVC HS 4K)

3840 x 2160 (4:2:0, 10 bit, NTSC) (Approx.): 120p (200 Mbps), 60p (150 Mbps / 75 Mbps / 45 Mbps), 24p (100 Mbps / 50 Mbps / 30 Mbps); 3840 x 2160 (4:2:0, 10 bit, PAL) (Approx.): 100p (200 Mbps), 50p (150 Mbps / 75 Mbps / 45 Mbps); 3840 x 2160 (4:2:2, 10 bit, NTSC) (Approx.): 120p (280 Mbps), 60p (200 Mbps / 100 Mbps), 24p (100 Mbps / 50 Mbps); 3840 x 2160 (4:2:2, 10 bit, PAL) (Approx.): 100p (280 Mbps), 50p (200 Mbps / 100 Mbps)

AVsupport wrote on 1/27/2021, 11:54 PM

MXF is what we'll see from the brand new FX6, and all the other FX's, being the 'Cinema' line of cameras. They are using the same codec, but different container. Some report different mileage in usability on their respective NLEs.

On that note one should ask if Sony Catalyst Edit can deal with those.? (Browse does, I checked)

Last changed by AVsupport on 1/27/2021, 11:55 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

32GB (4x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

Crucial BX500 1TB EDIT 3D NAND SATA 2.5-inch SSD

2x 4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.

RogerS wrote on 1/27/2021, 11:59 PM

I found some FX6 files here for download. 10 bit 4:2:2

RogerS wrote on 1/28/2021, 12:04 AM

MPC couldn't open them at all. So I had no hopes for Vegas...


and then it worked perfectly.