HEVC 10-Bit 422 and 420: Howsit Going, Magix [VP19 update below]?

Comments

RogerS wrote on 1/28/2021, 12:27 AM


Resolve free version was 0 for 3. The a7sIII 4:2:0 file looks like this. The FX6 file gave a red screen. The sIII 4:2:2 file was audio only.

lenard wrote on 1/28/2021, 12:31 AM

For comparison, here's a HEVC 10-Bit 4K 420

https://drive.google.com/file/d/164PaIoVuMoc3Q7exmuoQjumVo2QPFwhg/view?usp=sharing

do yourself a favour and compare playback performance in VP18 and Mediaplayer:

TLDR: in Mediaplayer, playback CPU drops down to <20% where it's obvious with GPU running >30%. I call this proper GPU support.

 

 

I tried the 10bit 420 HEVC. I can confirm there is no gpu decode with Nvidia on latest version of Vegas.

RogerS wrote on 1/28/2021, 1:06 AM

Is that an NVIDIA limitation? You may need the Intel decoder for the 10-bit 4:2:0.

lenard wrote on 1/28/2021, 5:44 AM

Previously the 10bit 420 files from the camera were able to be loaded by re-encoding the audio to AAC and Nvidia gpu decode would work. The files would play but inevitably Vegas would crash unless extremely lucky. Doing the same process now results in no gpu decode. Their short term fix was to block GPU decode of this video type, so you can understand from the OP's perspective, that's not a very good fix

RogerS wrote on 1/28/2021, 6:10 AM

I see, so for NVIDIA the fix provides stability at the expense of performance. Hopefully that's just temporary for those without Intel iGPUs.

AVsupport wrote on 1/28/2021, 4:51 PM

I found some FX6 files here for download. 10 bit 4:2:2

I can only find INTRA files there @RogerS which is AVC based, not HEVC. Intra from the A7S3 plays absolutely fine and is my codec of choice for the moment, but there's fps limits and data amount to consider

/EDIT:

I might have it wrong in that the FX6 might not do HEVC at all anyway..check this article https://www.cined.com/sony-fx6-review-first-look-an-almost-perfect-camera/

However, I believe other cameras like Canon R5 also use HEVC so does some Gopro? Any users out there with similar experiences?

Last changed by AVsupport on 1/28/2021, 5:13 PM, changed a total of 2 times.

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

32GB (4x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

Crucial BX500 1TB EDIT 3D NAND SATA 2.5-inch SSD

2x 4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.

RogerS wrote on 1/28/2021, 7:22 PM

@AVsupport You asked about MXF files and I found 4K 10 bit 4:2:2 : ) I wonder why MPC player didn't support it if it's just AVC.

Amazingly, the Sony FX6 shares the codecs with the FX9, not with the a7S III: Both the XAVC-I (intra-frame) and XAVC-L (Long GOP) in the MXF wrapper are there, all of them H.264-based. There’s no H.265-based codec like the XAVC HS 4K UHD 120p from the a7S III. This means good compatibility for all recorded codecs in the FX6 with existing editing platforms, because those are already known from the FS7 and FX9.
https://www.cined.com/sony-fx6-released-full-frame-4k-120-fps-dual-native-iso/

AVsupport wrote on 1/28/2021, 7:55 PM

Yes @RogerS I thought it was obvious since the thread is about HEVC; However, since then, I have noticed Canon R5/6 uses MOV for their H265 files. Was gonna try that next but I have no files to test

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

32GB (4x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

Crucial BX500 1TB EDIT 3D NAND SATA 2.5-inch SSD

2x 4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.

RogerS wrote on 1/28/2021, 8:02 PM

Well, until you posted the CineD link I actually couldn't tell what the file was as I don't have MediaInfo and couldn't open them in MPC (I use its properties as MediaInfo).

The only other file I have is a ZCAM 10 bit 4:2:2 ProRes with embedded HEVC. It's now working in Vegas with this update (without checking legacy HEVC).

AVsupport wrote on 1/28/2021, 8:22 PM

ProRes with embedded HEVC?? I would have thought both of those are distinctively different codecs and not containers like AVI, MXF or MOV etc...

Mediainfo is free maybe you want go download from here

https://mediaarea.net/en/MediaInfo

then analyze your ZCAM file and perhaps share a short one online for testing?

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

32GB (4x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

Crucial BX500 1TB EDIT 3D NAND SATA 2.5-inch SSD

2x 4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.

RogerS wrote on 1/28/2021, 9:01 PM

Hi AVSupport, re: ZCam with 10-bit ProRes and embedded HEVC, this is actually something we had back and forth on this forum about and was flagged for the Vegas developers to fix. They fixed it. I had downloaded a sample from this forum.

Info from MPC:

General
Complete name                  :
Format                         : MPEG-4
Format profile                 : QuickTime
Codec ID                       : qt   2004.06 (qt  )
File size                      : 1.80 GiB
Duration                       : 43 s 710 ms
Overall bit rate mode          : Variable
Overall bit rate               : 354 Mb/s
Encoded date                   : UTC 2020-09-29 11:40:52
Tagged date                    : UTC 2020-09-29 11:40:52
com.zcam.camera.prepend        : v0
CameraMaker                    : Z CAM
CameraModel                    : E2-F6
com.zcam.camera.sn             : 501D0050134
com.zcam.camera.fw             : 0.96
com.zcam.camera.movieType      : MOVIE
com.zcam.camera.lut            : Z-Log2
com.zcam.camera.iso            : 400
com.zcam.camera.storage        : AVpro256
com.zcam.camera.aperture       : F2.8
com.zcam.camera.lensType       : TAMRON SP 70-200mm F/2.8 Di VC USD G2 A025
com.zcam.camera.lensFocalLengt : 200mm
com.zcam.camera.focusDistance  : 25735mm
com.zcam.camera.nd             : clear
com.zcam.camera.whiteBalanceMo : Manual
com.zcam.camera.whiteBalanceKe : 5600K
com.zcam.camera.whiteBalanceTi : 0
com.zcam.camera.sharpness      : Weak
com.zcam.camera.noiseReduction : Off
com.zcam.camera.projectFps     : 23.98
com.apple.proapps.shootingRate : 23.98
com.zcam.camera.captureVfr     : 60
com.apple.proapps.cameraName   : A
com.apple.proapps.reel         : 022
com.zcam.camera.battery        : 14.5V
com.zcam.camera.temperature    : 31.5°C
com.zcam.camera.shutterAngle   : 180°
com.zcam.camera.splitIndex     : 0
com.apple.proapps.clipID       : A022C0072_20200929074052_0001
com.zcam.camera.hash           : 4c66

Video #1
ID                             : 1
Format                         : ProRes
Format version                 : Version 0
Format profile                 : 422 LT
Codec ID                       : apcs
Duration                       : 43 s 710 ms
Bit rate mode                  : Variable
Bit rate                       : 324 Mb/s
Width                          : 4 096 pixels
Height                         : 2 160 pixels
Display aspect ratio           : 1.896
Frame rate mode                : Constant
Frame rate                     : 23.976 (24000/1001) FPS
Color space                    : YUV
Chroma subsampling             : 4:2:2
Scan type                      : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)             : 1.528
Stream size                    : 1.65 GiB (92%)
Writing library                : ZCAM
Language                       : English
Encoded date                   : UTC 2020-09-29 11:40:52
Tagged date                    : UTC 2020-09-29 11:40:52
Color primaries                : BT.709
Transfer characteristics       : BT.709
Matrix coefficients            : BT.709

Video #2
ID                             : 2
Format                         : HEVC
Format/Info                    : High Efficiency Video Coding
Format profile                 : Main@L3.1@Main
HDR format                     : SMPTE ST 2086
Codec ID                       : hvc1
Codec ID/Info                  : High Efficiency Video Coding
Duration                       : 43 s 710 ms
Bit rate                       : 24.3 Mb/s
Width                          : 1 280 pixels
Height                         : 674 pixels
Display aspect ratio           : 1.899
Frame rate mode                : Constant
Frame rate                     : 23.976 (24000/1001) FPS
Color space                    : YUV
Chroma subsampling             : 4:2:0
Bit depth                      : 8 bits
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)             : 1.173
Stream size                    : 126 MiB (7%)
Language                       : English
Encoded date                   : UTC 2020-09-29 11:40:52
Tagged date                    : UTC 2020-09-29 11:40:52
Color range                    : Limited
Color primaries                : BT.709
Transfer characteristics       : BT.709
Matrix coefficients            : BT.709
Mastering display color primar : R: x=0.060000 y=0.330000, G: x=0.300000 y=0.150000, B: x=0.640000 y=0.600000, White point: x=0.312700 y=0.329000
Mastering display luminance    : min: 0.0000 cd/m2, max: 0 cd/m2
Codec configuration box        : hvcC

Audio
ID                             : 3
Format                         : AAC LC
Format/Info                    : Advanced Audio Codec Low Complexity
Codec ID                       : mp4a-40-2
Duration                       : 17 s 515 ms
Bit rate mode                  : Variable
Bit rate                       : 128 kb/s
Maximum bit rate               : 256 kb/s
Channel(s)                     : 2 channels
Channel layout                 : L R
Sampling rate                  : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate                     : 46.875 FPS (1024 SPF)
Compression mode               : Lossy
Stream size                    : 268 KiB (0%)
Language                       : English
Encoded date                   : UTC 2020-09-29 11:40:52
Tagged date                    : UTC 2020-09-29 11:40:52

Other
ID                             : 4
Type                           : Time code
Format                         : QuickTime TC
Duration                       : 43 s 710 ms
Frame rate                     : 23.976 (24000/1001) FPS
Time code of first frame       : 07:40:52:00
Time code, striped             : Yes
Title                          : 022
Language                       : English
Encoded date                   : UTC 2020-09-29 11:40:52
Tagged date                    : UTC 2020-09-29 11:40:52

AVsupport wrote on 1/29/2021, 2:04 AM

ahh yes I see, not that I do know how zcam does its thing, but what I see is an mp4/qt container with 2 streams, one being your full res ProresLT, the other HEVC is a proxy. This is definitely completely different. HEVC 'basic' main profile is 8bit 420. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Efficiency_Video_Coding

 

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

32GB (4x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

Crucial BX500 1TB EDIT 3D NAND SATA 2.5-inch SSD

2x 4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.

AVsupport wrote on 1/30/2021, 10:40 PM

Someone here with a Canon XF705? I think this camera records 10-Bit 422 HEVC in MXF.

Would be great to analyze / have a look it it works with VP

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

32GB (4x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

Crucial BX500 1TB EDIT 3D NAND SATA 2.5-inch SSD

2x 4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.

AVsupport wrote on 1/30/2021, 11:18 PM

Here's an interesting thread on the BM forum about 10-bit HEVC and containers:

https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=116485&p=718201&hilit=HEVC+10+bit#p718201

 

 

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

32GB (4x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

Crucial BX500 1TB EDIT 3D NAND SATA 2.5-inch SSD

2x 4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.

wwaag wrote on 1/31/2021, 11:01 AM

@AVsupport

Here's some sample XF705 footage you can download. https://www.dropbox.com/s/i7lex71mkugg97c/XF705_A003C002H1901045W_CANON.MXF?dl=0

It does not work in Vegas without transcoding. In fact, I added an XF705 option in the ImportAssist tool which enabled transcoding to different codecs plus rewrapping the audio into front/rear stereo pairs.

AKA the HappyOtter at https://tools4vegas.com/. System 1: Intel i7-8700k with HD 630 graphics plus an Nvidia 1050ti graphics card. System 2: Intel i7-3770k with HD 4000 graphics plus an AMD RX550 graphics card. System 3: Laptop. Dell Inspiron Plus 16. Intel i7-11800H, Intel Graphics. Current cameras include Panasonic FZ2500, GoPro Hero11 and Hero8 Black plus a myriad of smartPhone, pocket cameras, video cameras and film cameras going back to the original Nikon S.

AVsupport wrote on 1/31/2021, 4:02 PM

Thanks @wwaag , In that case it is fair to conclude that the choice of container format has no impact on whether HEVC 10bit 422 files can be played or not as these are being treated the same internally?

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

32GB (4x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

Crucial BX500 1TB EDIT 3D NAND SATA 2.5-inch SSD

2x 4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.

wwaag wrote on 1/31/2021, 4:14 PM

@AVsupport

I'd say so. It's the format itself. I did a fair amount of searching a couple of days ago and could find no way to even convert into an mxf container. You can rewrap avc footage (E.g. from a GH5) into an mxf container using FFmpeg and bmxtranswrap, but not hevc. It would appear that for the time being, you'll just have to wait until Magix supports hevc 10bit 422 decoding. I've also got some Canon MarkIII footage which is also 10it 422 and it fails to import as well.

Last changed by wwaag on 1/31/2021, 4:15 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

AKA the HappyOtter at https://tools4vegas.com/. System 1: Intel i7-8700k with HD 630 graphics plus an Nvidia 1050ti graphics card. System 2: Intel i7-3770k with HD 4000 graphics plus an AMD RX550 graphics card. System 3: Laptop. Dell Inspiron Plus 16. Intel i7-11800H, Intel Graphics. Current cameras include Panasonic FZ2500, GoPro Hero11 and Hero8 Black plus a myriad of smartPhone, pocket cameras, video cameras and film cameras going back to the original Nikon S.

AVsupport wrote on 1/31/2021, 5:27 PM

@wwaag for the excercise, I have copied both 422 and 420 and changed the file extension to MXF. Mediainfo can still partially read interesting 'other' info I don't get to see in the MP4, however I don't see video stream info, and VLC plays both mp4/mxf versions undeterred.

Difference is, 420 playback is awesome with 6%CPU & 50% GPU decode, and 422 struggles as expected with 100%CPU - and no GPU decode.

But is still plays.

So obviously there's some codec in my computer that can see 422, and maybe that can be used to transcode into something Intra, perhaps through your marvellous piece of software engineering, maintaining 10-bit 422, so that I can still edit this with VP ?

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

32GB (4x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

Crucial BX500 1TB EDIT 3D NAND SATA 2.5-inch SSD

2x 4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.

wwaag wrote on 1/31/2021, 6:25 PM

@AVsupport

"So obviously there's some codec in my computer that can see 422, and maybe that can be used to transcode into something Intra, perhaps through your marvellous piece of software engineering, maintaining 10-bit 422, so that I can still edit this with VP ?"

Sure. As I said before, you can transcode to MagicYUV 10-bit 422 which is an intraframe codec and plays very well Vegas, or you can transcode to ProResHQ which is also 10 bit 422, but doesn't play as well. In my development machine, I only use an Nvidia 1050ti so your playback should be a lot better if have a more powerful GPU.

AKA the HappyOtter at https://tools4vegas.com/. System 1: Intel i7-8700k with HD 630 graphics plus an Nvidia 1050ti graphics card. System 2: Intel i7-3770k with HD 4000 graphics plus an AMD RX550 graphics card. System 3: Laptop. Dell Inspiron Plus 16. Intel i7-11800H, Intel Graphics. Current cameras include Panasonic FZ2500, GoPro Hero11 and Hero8 Black plus a myriad of smartPhone, pocket cameras, video cameras and film cameras going back to the original Nikon S.

AVsupport wrote on 1/31/2021, 6:31 PM

thanks again @wwaag , let's hope that someone at the Vegas team starts to take this seriously. I have the feeling most programming effort went into the new addon software lately with the video editor being neglected..

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

32GB (4x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

Crucial BX500 1TB EDIT 3D NAND SATA 2.5-inch SSD

2x 4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.

RogerS wrote on 1/31/2021, 9:23 PM

@AVsupport I don't see evidence to support that. Much of the "add-on software" is done outside Magix. We have engineers posting here saying their focus is I/O.
I posted examples of fixed ZCAM HEVC with ProRes that was patched in the last build. I believe they also fixed software decoding of Iphone HEVC. These were flagged by users in this forum.

We're seeing a focus on stability and performance and secondarily a continuous increase in the types of files that can be decoded in Vegas. I look forward to a better-performing graphics engine with raw (ProRes raw and possibly Blackmagic raw) support as has been mentioned in other threads, but we don't know when that will come.

Radomir wrote on 2/12/2021, 1:36 PM

I have vpro 17 for now, and this version can't open file from sony A7S3 in 4k50p 4:2:2 @L5.2. I see only green screen.

Vegas pro 18 can do it?

AVsupport wrote on 2/12/2021, 3:14 PM

@Radomir if you stick to Intra, which is XAVCS, then you're fine, but do stay away from HEVC 10/422 as VP won't see it. You can import HEVC 10/420 but don't expect GPU support, this might force you into a proxy workflow.

Hence this post.

@RogerS VP used to be a Sony software, hence the user base traditionally being a lot of Sony users. Would make sense from a developers perspective to satisfy the broadest user base first before adding other offerings, such as BRaw, ProRes IMO.

Since the A7S3 Sony has now landed the 8K A1, and there's others on the horizon, with HEVC being the key to high resolution high framerate in-camera recording.

Quote Wiki: "As of 2019, HEVC is used by 43% of video developers, and is the second most widely used video coding format after AVC". HEVC version4 was ITU-T approved 2016, with many more years prior in the making. So, no one really can say that this 'sudden arrival' has come as a surprise. Time for Magix to show some love and

go with the flow.

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

32GB (4x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

Crucial BX500 1TB EDIT 3D NAND SATA 2.5-inch SSD

2x 4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.

Radomir wrote on 2/12/2021, 4:32 PM

@Radomir do stay away from HEVC 10/422 as VP won't see it. You can import HEVC 10/420 but don't expect GPU support, this might force you into a proxy workflow.

Why? Isn't this ridiculous, that I can't work with material from my camera? This should be fundamental function of professional software, not 1000th efect (from third party), but just open file........