HEVC 10-Bit 422 and 420: Howsit Going, Magix [VP19 update below]?

Comments

Former user wrote on 9/1/2021, 10:37 PM

This deocoding overload thing has been happening since The decoder was introduced in VP15, it's never fixed or improved it, yet most users don't even know that's what causes the majority of lagging when playing back a project, helpful people bring up everything else that might be the cause and never get to the decoding thing. . On lower powered systems, they have no choice but to use GPU decoder, if it doesn't work properly they aren't able to turn decoder off for smooth playback

The pre rendering work around either in ram or to file is helpful but it's a work around for something that shouldn't be happening for edit cuts or very simple transitions, at a certain complexity level lagging is expected and it's good Vegas has the tools to manage this. Anyway diverted away from AvTech's HEVC playback topic so won't go on, I might add a post somewhere else showing 1080P playback and how for me it plays back better without gpu deocde

AVsupport wrote on 9/4/2021, 5:31 PM

It's just sad that so much of the precious developer's teams time is spent on developing support for Blackmagic (!) RAW where I would have thought that BM camera users would preferably use their 'native' optimized editor Resolve rather than a more expensive and less effective co-competitors NLE. Similarly, I'd say someone who seriously invested in RED camera infrastructure shooting RedRAW I would have seen using Apple and either Adobe or FinalCut. Traditionally the user base for Vegas is Sony shooters since it used to be their software; not supporting the biggest chunk of your user base as they develop is a big mistake imo. All that time spent on developing additional software and other functionality, where all I wanted was a faster and more reliable editor.

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

32GB (4x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

Crucial BX500 1TB EDIT 3D NAND SATA 2.5-inch SSD

2x 4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.

fr0sty wrote on 9/4/2021, 8:32 PM

Many people prefer VEGAS over resolve, including owners of BlackMagic cameras. As a NLE, Resolve isn't the best. It colors great, but its workflow leaves a lot to be desired for many... after all, it's why we're here and not there.

The fact is, people don't buy an NLE based on who made their camera. They buy it based on ease of use, features, etc... Sony didn't even make VEGAS, they bought it from Sonic Foundry and then left it to die after losing interest in it.

Another fact is, very few cameras record to HEVC (even if their numbers are slowly increasing), and HEVC is not a professional capture format. It is a delivery format. That doesn't mean 10 bit HEVC shouldn't be added to VEGAS, but as far as priorities go, there's a lot more squeaky wheels asking for the other formats right now. They got their wish, so now the team should be able to start getting to yours.

Howard-Vigorita wrote on 9/5/2021, 10:56 AM

The fact is, people don't buy an NLE based on who made their camera. They buy it based on ease of use, features, etc... Sony didn't even make VEGAS, they bought it from Sonic Foundry and then left it to die after losing interest in it.

I recommend the opposite... choosing your camera based on ease of edit. Would never buy a camera unless I was certain that I could edit it's footage with a practical work flow.

Another fact is, very few cameras record to HEVC (even if their numbers are slowly increasing), and HEVC is not a professional capture format. It is a delivery format.

That's only true for point-and-shoots. For more professional 4k, it's almost a necessity due to constraints of in-camera media capacity and bit-rate recording limits. I don't deliver in hevc unless I know for a fact that the recipient's editing platform can handle it... most cannot.

fr0sty wrote on 9/5/2021, 11:01 AM

I shoot 150mbps 10 bit 4:2:2 AVC in my cameras (Panny S1's), it looks great... and the bitrate could go higher if needed (my GH5 shoots up to 400mbps). SD cards can support up to 312MB/s, more than enough. If my camera decided to update its firmware to enable recording to SSD via its USB-C port, that number could go even higher, so it isn't the media that is holding us back. I could be recording ProRes in-camera with its capabilities, so HEVC isn't necessary as a capture format at all.

Last changed by fr0sty on 9/5/2021, 11:17 AM, changed a total of 4 times.

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Desktop

AMD Ryzen 7 1800x 8 core 16 thread at stock speed

64GB 3000mhz DDR4

Geforce RTX 3090

Windows 10

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Howard-Vigorita wrote on 9/5/2021, 11:26 AM

Guess it depends on what and how you shoot. Don't do run and gun, myself. I shoot mostly concerts and don't like to interrupt recording except during intermissions. Shoot 420 hevc 10-bit 29.97 60mps to a 2tb m.2 via cfast port and have done 4 to 5 hour holiday shoots without a media change. Could up that to 150 or 200 mbps but usually don't need to. Started out shooting to a T5 via usbc but it droped frames shooting raw or ProResHq so I switched to m.2/cfast. 4tb m.2/cfast media also dropped frames with raw so I'd be reluctant to chance that. I've also been experimenting with ProResRaw to a NinjaV using 2tb SanDisk Ultra sata ssd and it doesn't drop frames but the capacity is inadequate for me to do a full shoot.

Richvideo wrote on 9/5/2021, 2:21 PM

If you are walking away with a couple of hours of footage each week your storage requirements can become an issue quickly so if you can cut the drive storage used in half by shooting h265 that is a big reason it is appealing to some.

AVsupport wrote on 9/5/2021, 6:29 PM

HEVC is not a professional capture format. It is a delivery format.

There is quite some evidence demonstrating 10-bit HEVC 422 SLOG3 can be just as effective quality wise compared to RAW formats that shoot linear and thus require a ton of storage space, and can also throw up some editing challenges. AVC has been around for a while and is widely accepted as a 'professional' recording format, especially the Intra-variant. HEVC is based on AVC, but it's a smarter newer generation codec evolution, which is necessary and which we are definitely seeing now in cameras supporting 10-bit 4K and 8K moving forwards. One could argue that perhaps an HEVC-Intra variant, which exists but no camera does use it yet, might be the 'true professional' recording format, time will tell.

The problem with RAW formats not only is storage waste, which creates infrastructure problems for a wide base of prosumer shooters, but also there isn't a uniform approach and not a lot of cross compatibility: ArriRAW, RedRAW, Blackmagic, Canon,.. everyone does their own version which is not compatible and which in turn segments the user base and requires extra coding support as they all offer different features.

As for ProRes, I consider this an Apple thing for editors who don't care about GPU acceleration. It's another 422 Intra comparable to Sony's 10/422 AVC-I which is also netflix approved as a professional shooting format.

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

32GB (4x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

Crucial BX500 1TB EDIT 3D NAND SATA 2.5-inch SSD

2x 4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.

Kinvermark wrote on 9/6/2021, 9:51 AM

+1. Have to agree here - HEVC is growing in importance as a high-spec / low size format for high quality cameras. Vegas should support it.

IMO, ProRes has emerged as the best all-round intermediate with the widest support. It is a very useful tool so I am glad the Vegas team prioritized "Apple Official" support.