I couldn't see the forest because the trees got in the way !
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This is how I felt about the Trimmer all together.
I'm glad this thread not only helped me... but also helped a few others.

I have now begun to use my Trimmer and show others how to use it same as other NLE's.
I wish it would show some sort of BackGround ( and NOT the White) behind the Video when you select 'One Frame' for the Trimmer.

* I am now trying to determine how I can Select which Tracks my Video will go to when I add it from the Trimmer. Right now it seems like either the Audio, Video, or Both will create it's own/new track when added to the Timeline.

-- I usually know which track I want my media to go to... Does anyone know how to tell Vegas which Timeline Track(s) to add your Trimmer Media to?

The media seems to go to whichever track is highlighted. If it's audio and video it puts the audio below, if the video track is selected.If an audio track is selected it puts the video above.

for me, the trimmer is invaluable when editing long takes, and wanting to create tags for content - don't want to do it on the normal timeline, since the markers would interfere with existing markers / confuse issues

I add the region / markers in trimmer, which are then displayed inside the clip, rather than above the clip, and promote them if necessary using the built-in script

8-)

I also find the trimmer one of the greatest features of Vegas (along with takes). For long interviews and clips it's a lifesavor.

Marc

by jimmyz:
The media seems to go to whichever track is highlighted. If it's audio and video it puts the audio below, if the video track is selected.If an audio track is selected it puts the video above.
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Yep... that's what it's doing!

If I already have a project started and I have my Tracks set up... I like to be able to tell the Video & Audio which Track(s) to go to. I do NOT like/want them to Create New Tracks. This messes up my Timeline organization.

So, is there no way of telling it which track to put the Video on & which track to put the Audio on?

You do that by highlighting the tracks, or you can drag the selection from the trimmer to the track.

Where you might run into trouble is trying to get the video to go to the track you selected and the audio to go to some distant and unrelated track. Vegas will put the audio into the track just below the video, and if there's no track there it'll make one. If you're trying to set up your timeline like PPro, or you based your project on an AAF from ppro, then you'll have Vegas constantly making audio tracks because the video and audio are separated in a ppro layout.

As long as the tracks are layed out as Video above Audio Vegas won't normally make new tracks.

Now, "Render to New Track" is another matter...

Rob

I like to be able to tell the Video & Audio which Track(s) to go to. I do NOT like/want them to Create New Tracks. This messes up my Timeline organization.

I'm totally with you.
Unlike most other NLE, in Vegas the video and audio tracks have to be superimposed when we add Audio/Video data to time line.
I asked to a fix for a long time with no success.

To fix some lacks in Vegas, it would be really nice to have a scriptable Trimmer.
I made a Product Suggestion and I posted a request in the Scripting forum to have this feature.
I encourage those of you wanting this feature to do like me.

I think you mean that Video and Audio tracks have to be adjacent, not superimposed.

What Vegas would have to do is more strictly enforce which audio track belongs to a video track. Currently, Vegas just uses a loose association...if it's adjacent then that's where the audio goes.

Theres no other way for Vegas to determine where a video clip's audio would go, but if you're looking for a way to force Vegas to behave like Premiere then vegas would need to permanently pair a video track to an audio track. Track labels would go like this: Track 1-v / Track 1-a, Track 2-v / Track 2-a, Track 3-v / Track 3-a. Once the pairs were associated then I suppose you could move them into any arrangement you like. It's unnecessary and inflexible, but it'd make PPro and FCP users happier, which I guess is what it's all about.

Not sure how you'd designate lone audio and video tracks, but then those two NLE's aren't really very facile with audio anyway so why not dumb down Vegas a little to match them, eh?

Maybe the right solution would be to build in an option to create hard links between a pair of tracks. Then you can have the feature if you want it.

Rob Mack

I think you mean that Video and Audio tracks have to be adjacent, not superimposed.
Yes (I’m not English as you guessed).

Theres no other way for Vegas to determine where a video clip's audio would go, but if you're looking for a way to force Vegas to behave like Premiere then vegas would need to permanently pair a video track to an audio track. Track labels would go like this: Track 1-v / Track 1-a, Track 2-v / Track 2-a, Track 3-v / Track 3-a. Once the pairs were associated then I suppose you could move them into any arrangement you like. It's unnecessary and inflexible, but it'd make PPro and FCP users happier, which I guess is what it's all about.

I just wish Vegas adds Audio/Video data to the selected tracks (just like most NLE are working).
I don’t ask for a different workflow… just a little more flexibility.
Scriptable Trimmer would be a good solution to improve the workflow that some users are looking for.

When you say "selected tracks", do you mean that you're selecting two non-adjacent tracks and hoping that the Video and Audio will go to them? What Vegas will do is put whatever is appropriate on the last selected track and then the other part of the stream will go on an adjacent track. If no adjacent track is available Vegas will create a track. So, for example, if you select track 1 (a video track), and then ctrl-select track 5 (an audio track) and then go to the trimmer and add media by pressing "A", the media will go to the last selected track (in this case an audio stream goes to the audio track, track 5 in this example) and the video stream must go to a track above. If there is no video track above that audio track then Vegas will make one.

That's just the way it works. Vegas adds media to the last selected track. As long as you just keep the tracks arranged as Video above it's Audio everything works fine. This is very easy and certainly the least of anyone's problems. In this respect there's nothing wrong with the trimmer, it behaves exactly as designed, and always puts the audio and video on the track you selected --- as long as you aren't trying to pretend it's some other NLE.

This is not to say I think the trimmer is perfect. Not at all. I'm usually quite critical of the trimmer, but in this case the problem is a "loose nut behind the wheel", as mechanics say.

Rob Mack

When you say "selected tracks", do you mean that you're selecting two non-adjacent tracks and hoping that the Video and Audio will go to them?

Yes, exactly.
I don’t understand why you consider there is a problem with our request.
There is no contradiction with the actual workflow and our improvement request.
When only one Video track is selected, Vegas must work like it works actually.
If one audio track and one video track are selected, A/V data should go to those tracks (no matter about theirs position). That’s all.
This feature would be especially useful with complex compositing tracks structure.

Rosebud said:
I just wish Vegas adds Audio/Video data to the selected tracks (just like most NLE are working).
I don’t ask for a different workflow… just a little more flexibility.
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rmack350 said:
When you say "selected tracks", do you mean that you're selecting two non-adjacent tracks and hoping that the Video and Audio will go to them?
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Yes. That's exactly how I think it should work.
We should be able to specify both the Audio & Video track for Trimmer media to go to on our Timeline.
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Once the Audio/Video is on the Timeline, you are able to move it to whatever track you'd like so I'm confused as to why you can't add it to specific/selected tracks from the Trimmer.

I understand that Vegas has it's own way of doing things from the other NLE's (which is why lots of seasoned Editors say it's NOT professional)... but this is NOT about differences of NLE's, it's about the organized & efficient workflow of the Editor.

During my pre-production & project planning I also incorporate thoughts of how I will lay out my Timeline to get my desired look. With the current way Vegas adds media from the Trimmer to the Timeline it's not set up for the seasoned editor. It's more-so geared towards the Newbie that may not have acquired the organizational skills of the veteran and simply thinks this is how it's done. Or it's geared towards the Editor that has only used Vegas and does not know that there is a better way.

Seasoned Editors know the value of organization. I feel the current state of the Trimmer is not geared towards the Seasoned Editor.

I understand that Vegas has it's own way of doing things from the other NLE's (which is why lots of seasoned Editors say it's NOT professional)... but this is NOT about differences of NLE's, it's about the organized & efficient workflow of the Editor.

sync2rhythm,
Thank you to say what I'm not able to express since English is not my native language.
I often said Vegas is a really great NLE with powerful feature but with incomprehensible lacks too.
It is a pity that Sony don’t be aware about that.

I think you're expressing yourself just as clearly as most native speakers.

It's not that I think that Vegas shouldn't allow this, but it doesn't. The complaint was that there was no way to get anything added from the trimmer to the timeline to the track of your choice, and this is simply not true. As long as you use Vegas as designed this works pretty much flawlessly.

I just spent most of the afternoon making simple cuts in PPro. Yes, video and audio go to whatever tracks are active. It takes a lot more clicking to get something from the trimmer to the timeline but it does do it.

PPro essentially gives you two pseudo-timelines. One for video and one for audio. Each pane of the timeline is sizeable and scrollable so you can minimize the view of one or the other and just concentrate on picture or sound. Good or bad? it's hard for me to know but it's certainly not as streamlined as Vegas.

The biggest frustration anyone has with an unfamiliar NLE is in trying to force it into a workflow that just doesn't fit it. This sort of bull-headedness leads to lots of rants - and believe me I've heard a bunch of them as we migrated here from Media100 to Premiere Pro. I've watched people go through all sorts of contortions getting PPro to behave in a way that a more "seasoned" editor might expect.

Rob Mack

It's not that I think that Vegas shouldn't allow this, but it doesn't. The complaint was that there was no way to get anything added from the trimmer to the timeline to the track of your choice, and this is simply not true. As long as you use Vegas as designed this works pretty much flawlessly.

Rob,
If nobody complained about the Vegas lacks (well what I’m considering as lacks), Vegas would still not to have a dragable cursor (V5), a timeline dockable at bottom (V6), a more conventional trimmer (V8)… All of those features are very basic and most of the pro NLE have them since version 1.
I’m not speaking about workflow, I never said I want the same workflow as PP.
Once again, I don’t want a workflow change in Vegas. I just wish some little improvements (I works with Vegas since V1).
Give Vegas an Overwrite mode, a tracks lock button, a more robust preview/trimming features and you will get the best NLE (ok… Vegas is already the best NLE ;))) ).
Of course, I can continue to work without those improvements (although the lack of O.M is very handicapping to me).
In France, we say “l’espoir fait vivre” (roughly: with hope we can live).

I think most of those changes you mentioned were pretty widely lobbied for. I know I wrote in suggestions for some of them and I'm sure I was just one drop in the bucket.

Generally, when you see resistance to an idea it's usually because the person is thinking that adding one feature takes away another, which of course would be bad. But of course you don't have to trade features, you can add them.

Overwrite mode is good, although after spending an afternoon with PPro it seemed like overwrite was just about the only way to get something onto the timeline from the trimmer without a ripple (insert edit). It's a little less needed in Vegas than in PPro but the difference is that if you're dropping a clip onto an existing clip then an overwrite mode cuts a hole in the clip. Vegas does more of an A/B roll insert and if you "expand track layers" you'll see that. "Overwrite" would be a good additional option if you actually want to slice your existing clips. There are more undo steps to get rid of it but that comes with the territory. The result looks more like what I used to see with Media100 which was a contemporary of Avid when that first came on the scene.

Track locks have seemed like a no brainer and I'm not sure why it's never been implemented in Vegas, except that maybe it complicates the way media gets added to the timeline, as in Sync2Rythm's problem with audio not going where he wants it. Currently, if you drag video to the timeline, audio gets added in a very consistant and predictable way. If the default audio track for a video track were locked Vegas would need to somehow decide what to do with the audio. Does it just not add audio, create a new track, add it to the next available track, add it to a currently selected audio track? What if you have several audio tracks selected? Should Vegas ask? Asking is a very un-Vegas-like thing to do (but I wish it would ask what track to render to when I "render to new track").

Having Video and Audio go to Selected Tracks rather than adjacent tracks is fine, but what's the default behavior if you only have a video track selected?Same as usual?

All could be done, I'd imagine. But the idea that the current trimmer doesn't let you put media where you want it is like saying the clutch doesn't work right in your automatic transmission car.

Rob Mack

Overwrite mode is above all an editing method (not only a feature to use sometimes). It is particularly useful and effective with hard cut editing. For example, we don’t need to set precisely the Out point of the clip we add on timeline. We have just to concentrate to its In point. For the Out point we keep a little more data, it will be set at the next editing (Once again I hope my explanation are clear enough since I’m not English).There is professional editors using OM all the time.
In France, I know no broadcast company using Vegas and I’m sure this is because Vegas is not a cutter good enough.
Some guys thinks OM is an antiquated method. I think those guys never make hard cut editing.

I understand that adding one feature can take away another (and it is not easy as it appear). But while other NLE don’t have problem with those features, I don’t see why Vegas should have problem.

Your automatic/manual transmission car comparison is nice but I prefer to use a Automatic/Reflex camera comparison. In my point of view, on some sides Vegas is like an automatic camera needing some manual feature (what does not prevent from making very pretty photographs with an automatic camera ;))) ).

True, some things about Vegas are a bit too automated. The behavior of always wanting an audio track next to it's video track is one of them. The habit of always resampling stills to fit into the project's frame size is another.

So maybe the real issues are whether you can switch from automatic behaviors to manual behaviors. Vegas' ripple edit features are an example of good behavior because you can do ripple edits entirely manually if you want.

I honestly don't think that Vegas would have any problem with an overwrite mode, the difference from current behavior being that overwrite would actually cut out and remove previously existing footage. Vegas doesn't split clips when you add things to the timeline so what you'd want is a means of automatically making the splits (if desired) like some other programs.

It's very difficult to describe for people who are only using Vegas what "Insert" and "Overwrite" modes do. Looking at the PPro trimmer I can see three ways to get footage from the trimmer to the timeline:

1-Press the insert button: This cuts (splits) the current timeline clip at the timeline cursor's position and then does a ripple-insert of your trimmer selection. If nothing is present on the timeline then a ripple insert is performed but nothing is cut (split).

2-Press the Overwrite button: This cuts the current timeline clip at the timeline cursor's position and then it makes another cut further down that track to fit the trimmer selection in. It then deletes the cut out section and drops the trimmer selection into place. No ripple is required

3-Drag the image from the Trimmer window to the timeline: This places the footage selected in the trimmer into whatever track you drop it into on the timeline. It also drops the audio into the corresponding audio track even if that track is not selected (This is much more like Vegas behaves, except that audio tracks have very specific associations with their video tracks, while vegas just seems to treat the adjacent audio track as the right target). Using the CTRL key allows you to switch from Ripple and Overwrite mode.

So how is Vegas different?

1- (a minus) Vegas trimmer doesn't have it's own display window, it uses the main preview window. (You can get Vegas to look like it has it's own window, but I think this is a kludge)
2- (a plus) vegas trimmer can display thumbnails and waveforms
3- Vegas and PPro both seem to be able to save markers in a clip
3.1- Saved markers can travel with the media to new projects
3.2- (a plus) Vegas can also save regions which you can browse in the Vegas Explorer. It's very useful, even if the implementation is chaotic. You can't see the regions in the project media window, only the Vegas explorer.
4- Both have a means of selecting V+A, V, or A
5- Both have a trimmer history and you can clear some or all of the clips from the list.
6- Both show the clip markers inside the clip on the timeline
7- Vegas displays the in, out, and duration of a selection in editable fields. You can type in the values you want in any of thos fields.
7.1- PPro shows you the duration of the selection and the current cursor position. Current cursor position is editable in text field but In, Out, and Duration are not. It works, but it's not as flexible.
7.2 Vegas stops displaying the values of your selection if you cursor elsewhere. This is because the area between the in and out marks is no longer "Selected". Marking Regions in the trimmer becomes very useful here to save a selection.
7.2.1 To display those values again you need to double-click up in the marker area of the trimmer timeline.
7.2.2 (Huge Minus!) Doubleclicking in the track views of the trimmer will wipe out your previous In/Out points. There is no undo here. Marking a region would have been a good safety measure.

<Rosebud says: You can use the Backspace key to restore previous five time selections.> Thanks Rosebud!

8- Vegas trimmer transport buttons to go to the beginning and end of the entire clip, or they can do Page-up/down movement. User must know keyboard commands for Frame left/right, previous/next marker, etc. PPro provides buttons for the things Vegas must do with the keyboard. In the long run the keyboard commands are more efficient but buttons are easier for new users.
9- Both trimmers can create subclips. PPro allows you to edit the subclip, Vegas forces you to recreate it.
10- PPro trimmer lets you adjust the speed or duration of a clip, and lets you reverse the clip or subclip. Vegas' trimmer only lets you reverse a subclip. Speed can be changed on the timeline but there's an advantage to doing it in the trimmer because then the setting can be easily reused. Neither Program's project media views show you that an effect is applied until you actually select the clip, and then PPro is a little more clear about it. Both are failures in this regard.
11- Vegas does NOT let you apply MediaFX in the trimmer, which I think is a major failing as in my opinion the trimmer is the place to work on individual clips. PPro doesn't let you do this either. If I remember correctly, Media100 would allow this but I think this automatically created a subclip with the effect applied. Fine, less confusion in the project media window that way.
12- "Play Around". PPro has a button for this that will allow you to preview the area before and after the trimmer cursor. Vegas has this feature too, but evidently not in the trimmer. Incidentally, this was a feature I lobbied for a while back, but the implementation doesn't seem useful. Rather, it'd be good to "Play ahead" or "Play behind". The idea is to be able to hear a little audio before or after the cursor to help you tell if you gotten past a noise like a lip smack or breath. "Play Around" doesn't seem very helpful if you can't tell where your cursor is. This was what I saw in Media100 and it was VERY useful.
13- Vegas allows you to add the trimmed selection either before or after the timeline insertion point. This can be very useful.
14- Insert, Overwrite, and 3 point editing: the idea of 3 point editing is that you can select two points on the timeline or on the trimmer and then a third point in the trimmer or timeline and that's all you need. Vegas can't do two on the timeline and one on the trimmer (It won't fit trimmer media into a timeline selection) but you can fake this with Takes as long as you are dropping trimmer media onto timeline events. This doesn't work with empty timeline space. It'd be useful if Vegas could do all variations of three point edits, but it can't.Maybe the best way to explain it in a product suggestion would be to make a flash movie of how it ought to work, to show the madison folks, cause it seems like they've never taken it to heart.
15- Adding media from the trimmer to selected tracks
15.1- Vegas doesn't quite do it. Vegas will add Video and Audio to adjacent tracks, requiring an audio track to be just below a video track (which users of some other systems find objectionable). You can select which video or audio track the trimmer will put media on, but the other part of the stream will always go onto an adjacent track.
15.1.1- There are some situations where PPro also behaves similarly...when you drag from it's source window PPro will put audio onto an audio track even if you haven't selected it, and if all the audio tracks are locked PPro will create a new track. But these situations are much less common in the ppro workflow, I'd think
15.2- If the Audio track isn't present Vegas will create one (also which users of some other systems find objectionable). Vegas doesn't keep track of which Audio Track belongs to a Video Track (Track Video1 doesn't have a matching Track Audio1). You can reorder your tracks in any way you like in Vegas, but Vegas will still place audio on a track below it's video. Probably the simplest solution here is to actually use V1/A1 tracks so that when you drop video onto V1 the audio normally goes to A1 no matter how you've arranged things (or to the audio track with the focus if that's what you've done)
15.2.1- PPro does create new tracks, but only if all the other tracks are locked
16- Just an observation about timeline video tracks. If you right-click on a video track header and then enable "Expand Track Layers", you'll see that Vegas is using a Vegas is using an A/B track style. When you add media to the timeline it's a little more obvious what Vegas is doing if you have this view enabled. This looks a lot like what I used to see in Media100 and should be more familiar to some of the editors with a lot of history behind them. ButI bring this up because...
17- Audio tracks could also behave this way. You should be able to open up the audio track to show Left and Right channels and operate on them independently. I've never seen a sound guy record stereo audio onto a camera, it's always two mics, usually lavalier and boom. If Sony want's vegas to be seen as professional, some sort of allowance for this practice ought to be made. This isn't really about the trimmer but the point about expanding track layers brought this to mind.

Whew! Another day squandered.

Rob Mack

Huge and nice comparison, Rob.

Just a few words to add:
-I think Vegas doesn’t have an OM because it was initially a multitrack audio editor (where OM is needed when recording but not when editing). Moreover, not many guys ask for this feature here. It is certainly because there is not many Seasoned Editors here (nobody need to feel offended here, I speak about editor working for broadcast company on long movie with hard cut editing).
Btw, I wrote a script to simulate Overwrite mode. This is not as handily as a real OM but that can help to understand what is OM. Once again, with a scriptable Trimmer I could write a real OM script.

-About your point 7.2.2 : You can use the Backspace key to restore previous five time selections. But I agree, it's too easy to lose time selection in Vegas (Timeline & Trimmer).

Thanks for the backspace tip! There's always something you just didn'y know!.

Here's a link to a mockup of what the trimmer might look like with a few of people's top favorites: http://www.flickr.com/photos/rmack350/

Rob

I like this mock-up, Rob !

Moreover, this second preview window could be used when trimming event on timeline. The current stretched preview windows (for Slip/Slip-trim/Trim-adjacent/Slide editing) is not serious enough for a NLE like Vegas. And it would be nice to preview adjacent points for simple cut editing (currently, we have to press alternatively the ‘7’ and ‘9’ key to switch between points).

About OM, I had imagined another way.
Where the “Overwrite on Timeline” would automatically disable the Auto Ripple option.

My mockup has too many buttons on it, but I think a trimmer with its own monitor window would look about like that. I like having the audio and video tracks below, which is why I think the current workaround of showing just one frame of the video track is a kludge (or jerry-rig, if you like). But the second row of buttons at the top is probably a no-no in whatever style specification exists for Vegas.

One thing I've never seen in Windows is two Media Player windows. This makes me think that there might be some restriction in Microsoft's tools about having two overlay displays runing at the same time, and this might be why the trimmer never had a monitor window of its own. Adobe seems to have gotten around that but I don't think the source and preview monitors are ever active at the same time.

I don't think that everyone keeps the trimmer up at all times and so maybe using it as part of the display when you slip or slide a clip isn't a good idea. I don't much care for the current squeezed look but I'll bet it wouldn't be hard for them to just display two smaller but normal looking frames in the preview window. It looks like they're partway there with the multicam tools anyway.

I think it's probably better to keep the trimmer narrowly defined as a tool for working with single clips off-timeline. It appears that the current trimmer bypasses a lot of processing since people say that they sometimes get worse playback once a clip is on the timeline than they see of the same clip in the trimmer. Which makes me wonder about my own request to be able to apply and see mediaFX in the trimmer. It makes sense to me but it seems like it's out of their design spec.

Regarding your overwrite mode on the timeline...I'm not sure what it gets you. To play with it, enable "Expand Track Layers" on a track and then try sliding clips over each other with automatic crossfades turned on and off. You can see that with crossfades Off you get what you're calling "Overlap on timeline" behavior. What your asking for is an overwrite mode that cuts the overlapped event into two or three events (and deletes the underelaying event) and then moves the tails and heads of those as you slide the overlapping event around. This probably makes the process of sliding a clip over another one more complex and one would have to decide just how necessary and desireable that is.

Lets take an example where it would be bad. Suppose you an automatic overwrite option for the timeline and you have placed one smaller clip into the middle of a larger clip. Now lets say you move it right or left. With a timeline overwrite mode the underlying clip gets cut again and now you have to manually drag the ends of the underlying clips back out. Basically, I think it creates more complexity where none is needed.

Back to the trimmer. I was having trouble seeing your point about making hard cuts with the trimmer but I think I understand what you're saying now. With automatic crossfades on, you can get crossfades when you add from the trimmer in some circumstances. You could turn auto crossfades off but having insert and overwrite modes would streamline this because everything you need is there at the trimmer and it would be more like turning autocrossfades off just for that moment.

I imagine most people leave auto crossfades on and just split clips for hard cuts. It's fast and easy, and probably 75% of the users here in this forum don't even use the trimmer, so that process makes sense.

So I think the trimmer needs to keep its default overlay mode, which can make automatic crossfades, but add an insert mode that does a ripple edit to a track even if the auto-ripple feature is off, and also add an overwrite mode that makes cuts on the timeline before adding the trimmer selection. Probably to keep it the interface simple these two could be activated with an alt or control key (which would also change the look of the buttons and the tooltip text.

Rob