O.K. I don't have my boxed set yet so I am still playing with Demo. I will try this stuff on a set top player as soon as I have software that burns.

In the demo version the back key returns to the sub menu that was used to access the clip or sub menu. If there are 7 sub menus it will go back through each sub menu from last to first. If I access the clip from a chapter point in the scenes menu, the back key returns to the main menu unless I modify the length of the clip that I am accessing. This makes sense to me since the purpose of the chapter points is to allow someone to start a video at that point, not to view a specified scene. If I want provide a specfic portion of the clip for viewing, I can always set it up as a clip accessed from a sub menu. It's really not clear to me why anyone would want to go back to the chapter menu unless they were fishing around for the right chapter to restart the video or they were showing friends the highlights of their wedding. Even so it's only one extra button to push on the remote.

I don't really see this as a bug in the program. Perhaps Sonic Foundry could add an option at some point to allow users to specify which menu they want to return to and keep everyone happy.

Its accepted practice. I haven't seen a DVD yet, that's comericially made that doesn't take advantage of the a remote's buttons. For example I have a Pioneer. The remote has a top menu button. Press that no matter where you are in the video it takes you back to the main or top Menu.

It also has a button simply labeled return. Pressing that button takes you back to where you pressed the last button. So if you have a sub menu page that has six thumbnails on it and you press any of them, pressing the return button takes you back to the page with the six buttons.

To further muddy the issue not all remotes do that. But most I've seen do.

The reason? Because the logic is assume you don't want to nor should you need to drill down page after page once you already started the process of going down to a sub menu. If you want to return to the top menu, there is a seperate button for that.

What I found curious is the remote built into DVDA DOES does do this. So I and other that sometimes make very complex DVD's where you could have already drilled down to a page pretty far from the main menu why would you want to be taken back to the main page? That would mean two buttons on the remote do the SAME thing.

I suspect this is just a programming error. Then reading some of the posts, I'm not sure it is. Which is why I asked the last question I did.

OK, I see what you mean.
But please allow me to be a little sceptic.

>>>
The "menu" (i.e. root) button or "top menu" (i.e. title) button will always go to the root menu.
<<<
1. That does not make sense because then you would have two buttons with the same function.

2. On the remote of my ELTA player I have actually 2 buttons labeled "Title" and "Digest". When I play any (industrial) DVD this buttons work exactly as I would expect. "Digest" always returns to the last displayed menu, "Title" always goes to the title menu, which is the same as the top menu or main menu.

3. I did the same simple Test I described above with the trial version of Ulead DVD-Workshop. Result: Works as expected - "Digest" goes to submenu, "Title" goes to main menu.

4. WinDVD: This software also has two navigation buttons, they are labeled "Title Menu" and "Root Menu". And again it is working as expected except with DVDs done with DVDA. That means the two buttons work different and correct with all DVDs (return to submenu with "Root Menu") but only with DVDA DVDs both buttons do the same - return to main menu.

5. Matrox Cineplayer: Exactly the same as 4.

So, for me that means: All kombinations of Desktop-Player, PC Software-Player and Authoring-Tools produce the same result - except DVDs made with DVDA.

At the end this opens the question: Is this the way DVDA is designed to work or is this a little bug that will be fixed sometime?

I want to say, that I like Vegas 3, Vegas 4 and also DVDA and I like the SF Support. I simple want to work out if we have a bug here and if yes, I am sure that it will be fixed - nothing more.

Regards
Johannes

I guess i'm confused. The back button takes me back to the last sub menu I used. The menu button takes me back to the main menu. This occurs on all sub menus. However if I create a scene selection menu and play the clip from a chapter point the back button takes me back to the menu or sub menu above the scene selection menu. This makes perfect sense to me since I am selecting that video clip and the purpose (in my view) of the scene selection menu is only to allow me to choose where I want to enter that particular clip.

In order to test this, I set up a DVD with a main menu and a link to a sub menu. I then placed a link to a second sub menu. I then plced a clip with chapter points on that sub menu. I then clicked on Insert scene menu. This created a menu with chapter point links. This provided me with a sub menu with two links, one directly to the clip and one to the clip via chapter points thru the scene selection menu. When I previewed the DVD I went from Main menu to sub menu to second sub menu then played the clip directly from the second sub menu. At this point the back button would return me to the second sub menu and the menu button would return me to the main menu. I then went to the scene selection menu and selected the second chapter point. The back button again returned me to the second sub menu and the menu button returned me to the main menu. I then went back into edit mode and placed the same clip on the main menu so that now I had two links to the same clip. One on the main menu and one on the second sub menu. Previewed again and discovered that no matter where I played the clip from; main menu, sub menu or scene selection menu, the back button would return to the main menu. I then modified the length or the clip linked to the button on the second sub menu and now the back button would return me to the appropriate sub menu. I then modified the length of one of the scenes in the scene menu and the back button would return me to the appropriate sub menu.

I don't really see this as a problem as I really don't expect that I will make an actual DVD that has a link to the same clip (unmodified) from more than one menu or sub menu. I guess unless I am really missing something, the program (for me at least) works just as it should.

I also really appriciate all the assistance and knowledge I have been receiving from this forum. Thanks to all. Wobbly Boy

>>>
I guess unless I am really missing something, the program (for me at least) works just as it should.
<<<

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I think what you are missing here is that you did your testing within the DVDA Preview window where the things really work as you described. BUT have you actually burned a DVD and did the same test on a Desktop Player or with a Software Player on the PC? Some people (including me) have found, that the behaviour with the burned DVD is different than what you get within the DVDA Preview!
So, once more - if the burned DVDs would work exactly the same way it is shown within DVDA Preview it would be OK.

Johannes

Johannes, I am patiently waiting for my boxed version of Vegas+DVD. I will test on desk top player when I get it. Thanks Wobbly Boy

OK - Thank you!
Johannes

No.

Videos will not always return to the "sub"-menu of origin. The reason is because a title can only define one return point. If a video is used multiple times in your project, it will be put into one title (except when the in and out points are different). The return point is determined by DVD-A as the top most menu which includes all references to the title.

This is how it was designed to work. We plan to provide more control over this in future versions.

OK - Thank You!
Johannes

Sonic SDB, you're STILL not answering the question!

The preview feature build into DVDA works one way and a actual burned DVD works another. I'm not talking multiple videos. Since this forum software is way too crude to allow embedded images let me draw you a diagram as best I can in text.

I put video X on the main menu. This is ONE video. If I elect to use a scene selection menu the button action is to go to a sub menu page. On the sub menu page you can have any number of thumnails EACH going to video X. The only difference is button 1, starts at 5.00 minutes into the video, the second button starts at 10.00 minutes and so on. You with me so far?

OK I clicked on sub menu button 2. I click back. It SHOULD return to the sub menu. It does in the build-in remote. It does NOT on a actual burned DVD WRONGLY jumping back to the top menu. This is an error! There are no multiple videos.

Same question, is this or isn't this fixed. If not fixed, I have no use for such non standard software and I doubt any professional will either.

Please post detailed steps as to how to reproduce the problem. I will do my utmost to understand and answer your question.

FYI, the update is now available. There is one known issue related to which menu is returned to in the preview that is fixed by this update.

http://www.sonicfoundry.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?MessageID=167269&Replies=0&Page=1

I know you're trying, we just don't seem to be talking the same language. I've tried to explain it several different ways already and where I'm confussed and it seems reading this thread others are confused is once you start playing a video from a sub menu what happens (or what SHOULD happen) when you hit a button on a remote.

The problem of course is the labels on remote controls vary. They all don't say the same thing, but everyone I've tried does basically the same thing, namely return to the sub menu when that's where you are if you press the appropriate button.

I'll try to explain better using my Pioneer Remote.

Top Menu --- pressing this ALWAYS returns you to the main or uppermost Menu. This works fine in DVDA.

Menu ------- works the same as Top Menu.

Return------ if hit AFTER you make a selection from a sub menu takes you back to the sub menu. It is my understaind based on what one or more posters said in this forum this function does NOT work as expected in DVDA. Instead of taking you back to the source of where you click from (a sub menu page) it jumps to the top menu. A fix was offered where if you manually edit each thumbnail chopping off a second, the function changes to proper action, returning to the sub menu.

Since I took what others said at face value I did not burn any DVD yet without making this adjusment. So maybe nothings is "broken".

What is confusing me is it seems there's is confusion not only in what remote button should do what, but also what DVDA does and if or not what it does in the original release is "broken" or not.

So that's what is causing me a great deal of annoyance. Because the manual is not clear (at least not in my opinion) what is SUPPOSE to happen. The manual covers WHAT happens IF you press one of the embedded buttons part of the application, but as I'm sure you know most remotes can and do have their own build in button action, which of course varies from make to make. Which is why I asked if anyone had a reference to the specs so we could be this issue behind us.

As I write this I am downloading the update. I will test if there is any change with the "return to submenu" problem with 1.0a.
Then I come back and report here.
If I still see the problem I will try to give a step by step description how to reproduce what I see to be a problem.

Johannes

Here I am back.
The installation of 1.0a was flawlessly - fine.

Summary:
There was no change with "return to submenu", I still se what I think is a problem.

First I try to describe what I get when I play any DVD-Video, industrial made or self made (but not with DVDA). And that result I get on my desktop player AND on my PC using WinDVD.
I have two buttons on the remote control (desktop player and software player). This buttons are labeled different on the different models but to make it simple let us call them "Title Menu" and "Back".
Now lets assume that we are currently on a menu which is NOT the topmost main menu - just any menu at least one step down into the hierarchy. On this menu we have a link to a video (text or button) and we activate this and so the video starts. When it is still playing I press one of the two buttons and get this result:

1. Pressing "Title Menu": The video stops and the topmost main menu is displayed.

2. Pressing "Back": The video stops and the same menu that I started the video from is displayed.

So, that is exactly what I would expect and call just normal behaviour.
When I do the same with a DVD authored and burned with DVDA the two buttons (1. and 2. above) both trigger the same action as a result: The video stops and the topmost main menu is displayed.
Attention: As you will see in the step by step description below, this has nothing to do with multiple usage of the same video, nothing with chapter points, nothing with automated chapter selection menus.

And one more interesting thing: If I do not press any button on the remote after the video has started and instead let it run to its end it returns to the same menu it was started from and does not go back to the main menu.

Step by step to reproduce what I tell here:

1. New Project / Menu based / PAL 4:3 (I am in Austria)
==>> This gives me the nice main menu page with the text "Main Menu" and nothing else.

2. Insert / Submenu
==>> This inserts a link to a submenu page into the main menu and produces a new menu page with header text "New Menu" and the automatically generated arrow that links back to the main menu.

3. From the Media Explorer I drag a MPG file to the menu from step 2.
==>> This inserts a link to the video into the submenu. This MPG video has no chapter points defined, the in and out points were not modified. There is no other reference to the video anywhere else in the project.

4. Preview the project
==>> That looks fine! It starts with the main menu and it can go to the submenu and back to the main menu. On the submenu I can start the video with the link and both buttons of the simulated remote control within DVDA preview work fine ("Back" leads to the submenu, "Menu" leads to the main menu). When the video is allowed to play till its end it returns to the submenu.

5. Prepare and Burn
==>> Prepares and burns without any problem or error messages. But when I put this disk into the desktop player or play it with WinDVD I get the result already described (no way to stop the video with the remote and have it return to the submenu - always only to the main menu). Different behaviour between simulation within DVDA preview and finished result on DVD......

So, thats all I can do. I hope I could describe it so that you can get what I tried to tell.

Regards
Johannes

Thanks alot for your help, because I am testing this software as a demo to see if it is right for my company... I know this is a Sonic forum, but, that is a pretty big deal, but, we are hesitant to go with something like DVD Producer... Do you know of other authoring ware that is good? This suite is seemingly great, however, this one part is a pretty big deal...

Greg

PS On a side note, I just thought of something, and let me know what you (or anyone else) thinks:

What if the main menu has both 'Play All' AND a listing of chapters? That would be one way around this issue, right? But, then again, it seems to me, the way DVDA is set up, when you mark chapters, is automatically creates that chapter menu... can my suggested way be done in DVDA?

Here is how I got the chapters and the 'play all' on the same page:
1. Set up the main menu with 'play all' choice.
2. Create the Scene Slection menu (chapter menu)
3. Cut the scene slections (chapters) all at the same time from the scene selection menu.
4. Paste them all into the main menu (they retain links to the chapter points)
5. Arrange them into a decent looking arrangement.

All links you click on will end up right back here, and then there will be no issues.

I know thats a bit odd, and can get complicated with many chapters, but, for few chapters, that is one method

Greg

This is the expected behavior...

"Top menu" button:
- takes you to the uppermost menu

"Menu" button:
- also takes you to the uppermost menu

"Return" button:
- same action as reaching the end of a video
- returns to the lowest menu which contains all links to the video (that have the same in and out points)

In regards to the "menu" button, some users expect this button to take them to the menu they came from. Returning to the menu you came from is not the definition of the "menu" button. It is possible that a DVD might be constructed in a way such that is true. However, depending on how you decide to layout your DVD in DVD-A, there are many situations where it would not be possible for the button to behave this way (i.e. limitation of the DVD spec). In future version, we plan to give more control over this (within the limitations of the DVD spec) but for this version, it will always go to the top menu.

In regards to the "return" button, the logic behind this is not obvious nor is it easy to explain and that's what is causing the confusion. The logic attempts to do the best it can within the limitations of the DVD spec. It returns to the menu it came from when it can. However, in many situations, this is not possible.

Why? A video (title) can only specify one return point.

Essentially, when you add the same video multiple time in DVD-A (or create a scene selection menu), you are actually only adding links to one copy of the video (title). We determine the return point automatically. Since it has to be the same for all links to that video, the return point is the lowest menu in which it and its submenus contains all links to the video (title).

When you change the in or out point, DVD-A considers that a separate copy of the video (i.e. different title). (Although, it uses the same video "data" so it isn't on the disc twice.) When it's a separate copy (i.e. different title), it can specify its own return point. So, you can have different return points by having different in and out points for the same video.

Some may argue, why doesn't DVD-A always make each link a separate title? Well, first, it will show up as a different title number on your set top player depending on the link you choose. Also, there is a limit of 99 titles on a DVD. So, you'd be limited to 99 links to videos in your DVD.

As a side note, by default in 1.0a, the "return" button functionality has been disabled for prepared DVDs. You can turn this back on in the preferences (Options | Preferences... > General > "Enable Go Up button in videos") but be aware that the timecode and chapter numbers may not display on some DVD players. It's a trade-off. You can have one or the other but not both. (Most commerical DVD do not support the "return" button when in a video.)

I hope that helps to clarify things.

Thanks for the detail! I don't think WinDVD has a "back" button. Although, I'll double-check tomorrow to make sure.

FYI, the "Top Menu" button is the same as the Title menu button in WinDVD and the "Menu" button is the same as the Root menu button in WinDVD. Both buttons will take you to the uppermost menu.

I tried to create a scene selection menu and modify the clips length, but it still returns to the top menu with both DVD digest or title buttons. Am I doing something wrong. My project is a dog show, two clips (limit of 99 chapters per movie), and I want to be able to play entire clip, classes (about 9-10) and scene selections for every dog in a class.

I'm trying to do this with the two clips on the main page, next submenu has the scene select menus for each class. When a menu key(whichever is the right one, which would be dvd digest), I want it to return to the scene select menu that it started from. Using the method described above, would I have to change the clip (of which I am playing a section(class) that has the chapter points (dogs) length (entire movie) to make DVDA think its a different title, and do this for each class, and each scene selection thumbnail??? I tried a simple example and I still get the same menu action on both my DVD buttons on a burned DVD. What am I missing. I have no back button, and the return button stops the DVD in resume mode(play again or stop). This action happens on commercial DVD's.

I have compared DVDA to Ulead DVD MF2, which has the text quality and menu navigation that I want, as described by others here, ie. scene slection returns to the menu it started when I press DVD digest during a selection playing, and title takes me back to the mani page.

Am I doing something wrong in this workaround to get my navigation right, or is there still a limitation in DVDA??

Thanks.

Thanks that clears it up for me EXPECT for one point. One poster at least said he needed to delete a second from the video on any sub menu to get it to return to a sub menu if I understood what he meant correctly. Now I'm thinking that the conflict is between multiple MENU buttons on remotes (mine has two) and NOT the return button.

So I am correct in assuming that as-is DVDA will return to the last menu WITHOUT needing to chop off a second? If so, great that of course saves lots of time.

Johannes, and others, I think I may have an easy work around for you to get the back button to return to the scene select menu. Set up menu, link to the desired clip. Set up a scene selection menu for that clip. Then double click on the link to the clip, edit the clip and trim a fraction off it's length. When you play the clip will return to the menu and the scene played from the scene selection menu will return to the scene selection menu. It only takes a second and you won't have to go in and edit each scene's length. Instead of editing the length for many clips for each chapter point only edit the main clip, a one step process.

If you don't want to edit the main clip I discovered that you can simply place two links to the same clip on the same or seperate menus, edit the second linked clip for length, make a scene selection menu for that clip, delete the link to the clip, leave the link to the scene selection menu. The main clip will play unedited from its link button. Portions of the clip accessed by chapter points from the scene selection menu will return to the scene selection menu via the back button on the remote control and to the main menu by the menu button.

I know these are work arounds but only involve one or two simple steps. I hope this works for you. Wobbly Boy