So, that's 2 of us.

Bill - things just HAVE to change! Really! I saw plassies and LCDs and and and . . well: Not Good Enough!!!

Bill? Wanna start an online Klub?? - Is there one already?

I know I know FAR far less than whole bunches of people here - but really? Dang!!!

Grazie

Hey, there's serious competition between LCD, plasma, and DLP-based devices, and in time the ones with blown-out whites or crappy gamma will fade away (hah!). I have a 3-year-old 62" Mitsubishi DLP set in my living room and it produces very attractive images, or at least it did once I dialed things in a bit. Right now I'm sitting in front of my cheapo Soyo 24" LCD computer monitor and it's a constant joy, with rich yet accurate colors, a pretty deep black level, and no level shifting as you move your head about. This technology has come a long way, in my view. And this for $290. I was happy to take my 21" Trinitron CRT monitor to the GoodWill people a month ago, all 70 pounds of it.

I am completely not with you both. The linearity on the LCD totally blows away any CRT. LCD's have about twice as much contrast as I have just found out with the Sony 46XBR 1080P and the (2) Sharp 32" gp1u game 1080P LCD's that I am using as a monitors. Even though the PC input on the Sharps is limited to 1360 x 768 I use a direct DVI to HDMI conversion to the Sharps HDMI inputs for full 1920 x 1080P viewing for editing with Vegas. With the adjustments set for OTA HDTV input the contrast, while looking great on an HD live show, will be about twice as much on your previously made still pictures which will print out perfect as long as you don't reduce the contrast on the monitor. I got used to it. The colors are so close I am happy and the resolution is spectacular. I gave my old Sony 13" CRT to my buddy even though it still worked fine. (fine being defined as crooked telephone poles, poor color rendition, poor convergence, fuzzy pictures, heat generator, and it talked to me once in a while. (crackled). I will never go back to a CRT and I am totally happy that they are being eliminated.
JJK

it produces very attractive images, or at least it did once I dialed things in a bit.

That's the kicker. Extremely few TV stores have knowledgeable staff with any idea how to adjust the picture, or even the phone number of someone who knows.

the PC input on the Sharps is limited to 1360 x 768 I use a direct DVI to HDMI conversion to the Sharps HDMI inputs for full 1920 x 1080P

PC input? You mean analog VGA/D-Sub connector? No wonder.

DVI and HDMI connectors carry the same picture signals (and potentially audio), so a small passive adapter can just connect the wires correctly.

I've seen what you're talking about.

On the other hand, I've also seen some LCDs (such as the Sharp Aquos) that were set up and adjusted properly and the images were absolutely breath taking. That's no exaggeration.

Sounds like you're the unfortunate victim of sloppy presentation. How do these retailers expect to sell these pricey items when they aren't allowing them to show what they are capable of doing???

The whole problem comes down to they way these things are presented in the showroom and the default set by the manufacturers.

I have been stopped, more than a few times, from adjusting units on the show room floor so that they look proper from OUR standpoint, because it make them "too dark", according to the salespeople. They are TAUGHT to turn up the picture, max sharpness and max contrast, max everything to brighten the output, so that it impresses the rubes.

I'm told that almost all units come from the factory setup improperly, and that is the way they are "SUPPOSED" to stay, so they sell better. You can adjust them any way you like them once you pay for it and get it away from the other sets on the floor and into your home.

I, for one, am going to miss CRTs. There is nothing quite as good looking as a properly calibrated, outrageously expensive, HD CRT broadcast monitor. When you've spent eighty years developing something, the end result is pretty good. I've gone all LCD except I am keeping one CRT production monitor just to see how things really look. LCDs, Plasma, DLP and SXRD just aren't quite there yet although they are very practical otherwise.

John

Another trick used by some retail places is they will skew the settings on the low end displays and adjust the more expensive display to look better.

I had a lot of growing pains with the first LCD I got 4 years ago. I hated the lack of black and the contrast problems. They are better now though but still not great. My current LCD has 3000:1 contrast and it's not bad but still won't do a complete black.

I agree with the deep black thing. It is evident on the "space" shots of the night sky with a lot of stars. The black thing has really been hyped up and everybody that walks into the store is now a deep black expert. You almost need a CRT alongside an LCD to see the difference. But I wonder with all the zillions of LCD's that were sold if it really matters to the people watching it without any comparison. And with all the backlight, contrast and brightness (and eye variations) adjustments the evaluation just got thrown into lottery odds for results. Everybody says "I have a good picture". It's nice that all the networks and professional people have the deep blacks that are ending up not so deep on the peoples tv's. Same as when HD came out---then HDV---now AVCHD. What next? When the big guy's figured out that we really don't need full HD we can do HDV because the people can't tell the difference between 4444 and 420. Next is AVCHD because the people can't tell the difference between HDV and AVCHD. The TV stations found out real quick that you don't have to download the national TV programs at 100 meg so now it is 50 megs and 25 megs. How low can we go says the bean counter. These guy's don't care abolut deep blacks. Just olive green.
JJK

Indeed, the masses are happy with 4:3 pictures stretched to fit 16:9 displays, need one say more?

As people have said already, TVs are seldom adjusted correctly in the store, in the home, or in the commercial display. This doesn't mean that the devices inherently clip highlights and that they're watched in high ambient light means that they can't show blacks even if capable. Farss pointed out (some time ago) that under normal viewing conditions images on LCD have a 6 bit range.
If you take as a standard 35mm (or 4K) projected on a large screen in a cinema, the market (and convenience) is continuing to degrade the standard that viewers take as satisfactory. TV is seldom seen in a darkened room, most people didn't notice that the VCR gave them back less than half the resolution of the FTA show they recorded, people find SD satisfactory, and happily watch videos on iPods and phones (even Nokia).
So while we want our productions viewed in HD under threatre conditions, that isn't likely and we have to take that into account. So we have to allow for those bright high saturation settings people seem to like. Everyone will remember that the medium does affect how the message is presented, that the smaller the viewed image the closer the camera has to go to the subject. So in our productions we have to allow for the common viewing situations, which certainly affects how we grade. Haven't yet found out how to make people set the correct aspect ratio.

EDIT: fixing some unnoticed scrambling of the text!

you know what really bugs me is, my eyes are so old (or I am, at 43), that I can't tell much difference between regular LCD/Plasma and HD screens... it all looks about the same to me... I wish I could tell the difference between deep blacks and how a picture's "supposed" to look.. but I guess my tired eyes just can't see well enough to discern this stuff....

quality's important..

-k

My point is, Ken, that a lot of fine quality was being lost within the blacks. AND, our youngsters are seeing this black as the way it is. Light a scene and have subtle blacks, and from what I am hearing, all this is up to how well the screen is set up.

My JVC 15" monitor shows great depth, subtly and variation within the blacks. I have yet to see the same on flatties.

If you can't see the difference then stand in in front of a SONY Trinitron CRT and a same size flattie.

Grazie

how true grazie and those of a similar mind....

i just went shopping for a hd crt and couldn't find one, just masses of lcd / plasma - some of which didn't look too bad, but there's no way i'm going to pay upwards of $3k for a piece of technology that's going to be obsolete by the end of next year.

and, as an aside, i saw maybe two true hd res, all the rest 720.

i'll stick with my old 4:3 crt a while longer.

leslie

Agree Grazie - but all hope is not lost.

Firstly, it seems reasonably well known hence why so many "show rooms" play animated footage - as HD films and so forth show up the lack of contrast unless set up right. Afterall, Finding Nemo looks nice on anything, including my PDA.

But, technology is on the mend. There is oLED (although short shelf life especially on blue color), and something that I can't remember atm, but Sony(?) were pushing earlier this year that was hubba hubba hubba picture quality-wise. Black was back in black.

Farss pointed out (some time ago) that under normal viewing conditions images on LCD have a 6 bit range.

Umm, that was a reference to SOME budget LCDs. There are LCDs with a 10-bit range, even 12-14 bits and beyond at the high end.

I've gone all LCD except I am keeping one CRT production monitor just to see how things really look. LCDs, Plasma, DLP and SXRD just aren't quite there yet

How things really look?

You mean how things really look for somebody who is using a CRT?

Isn't that a bit limiting for business? CRTs aren't sold anymore, not even for Broadcast Video Monitoring where Sony is now selling their truly excellent BVM LCDs, so it seems you are telling 90-99% of your customers "sorry, you're not watching my video right and I refuse to adjust it to give you schlubs a better picture on those newfangled LCD thingies."

Pop record producers mix the sound on studio monitors, then go play it in a car to see how it sounds like in real life for 99% of their customers. If it doesn't sound good there, they have to tweak the mix until it does.

The new LED backlit LCDs are awesome and so is the price but that'll change once the public empties the warehouses of the current crop of not so good LCDs.

Bob.

Not that I need to know but why is the LED backlight better?
JJK

DAMN that Oil Paint !!!

It just can't compete with the subtlety, the beauty, the texture, or the color of... FRESCO!

... and I LOVE the smell of the fresh plaster in the morning.

but wait...
photography???
Huh - it'll never be as good as a great oil -

and so on...
right up to LCD? CRT? PLASMA?

DAMN that Oil Paint !!!

It just can't compete with the subtlety, the beauty, the texture, or the color of... FRESCO!

... and I LOVE the smell of the fresh plaster in the morning.

but wait...
photography???
Huh - it'll never be as good as a great oil -

and so on...
right up to LCD? CRT? PLASMA?

Used ta be... I'd be right UP for a good chat on Technology vs Aesthetics, etcl...

But the truth is that we're in a freakin' WHIRLPOOL of change.
Grazie I l respect you greatly, but it doesn't matter a WHIT what you think or feel about this particular matter.
The decisions being made are done so entirely by businessmen!
They generally don't know and even more distressing... they don't care about anything but the bottom line.

But we as artists have to accept the medium Whatever it may be - and make it shine.

Don't dispair my friend - ain't NONE of it gonna be the same in five years, anyway - only the concept will count.

v

>>>>Umm, that was a reference to SOME budget LCDs. There are LCDs with a 10-bit range, even 12-14 bits and beyond at the high end.<<<

Pleased to be corrected. Certainly I've gone all LCD and mine have good black graduation and whites (after careful setting up) and I thought maybe the 6 bit applied to LCDs seen under bright light (as often viewed).

What a businessman knows is how to make money.
A businessman's integrity is in his wallet.
As an artist, integrity should come from a higher place than the seat of one's pants.
If being an artist means I am the marketting agent for some pimple faced ad kid who doesn't know his chroma from his luma, guess, I'm no artist.