"I had one for a few days, got a great price on a new one, sent it back, compared to a PS3 the A2 is a cheap toy."
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Well, you're sort of comparing an apple to an orange. The Toshiba is a player... the PS3 is a complete home entertainment device (for lack of a better term).

Well if I had to keep only one, I'd definately keep my PS3 over my A2, but the A2 is hardly a toy. My A2 can do something really cool that my PS3 can't: It can play back discs I make with menus and content on a regular DVD-R. The fact that it plays back home burned discs at all places it way ahead of Sony's newest model, the BDP-S300.

Now I understand that two updates from now, the BDP-S300 is supposed to become BD-R compatible. I understand that the Bluray specification is being updated and that most current Bluray players will not be compatible with the new spec. I understand that my PS3 will be compatible with the new spec, but the BDP-S1 that I talked my father into buying may not. Also, I keep reading posts on other forums like http://forums.support.roxio.com/index.php?showtopic=25294this[/link].

Meanwhile, my Toshiba A2 has been working perfectly on homebrew discs from the beginning.

Yeah, Sony seems to be winning the format war, but they seem to be doing it by making special deals with distributors while ignoring us end users entirely.

The porn industry is all but beaten into the ground... and the internet has done it.

So internet porn is not part of the porn industry? That's like talking about radio and the music industry as having nothing to do with each other. Is the movie business beaten into the ground because movies are shown on cable?

"So internet porn is not part of the porn industry? That's like talking about radio and the music industry as having nothing to do with each other. Is the movie business beaten into the ground because movies are shown on cable?"
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I think you understand what I'm saying.... my 10 year old kid did anyway.

But in case you didn't... I meant that particular method of porn distribution is all but beaten.

[i]My A2 can do something really cool that my PS3 can't: It can play back discs I make with menus and content on a regular DVD-R. The fact that it plays back home burned discs at all places it way ahead of Sony's newest model, the BDP-S300.[i] I make avchd disks with menus, chapters and all. These dvd-r or dvd+r_dl's hold much more HighDef video in h264 format then the hd-dvd's. They also play in the Blu-Ray players I've used so far. Plus in the PS3 and Blu-Ray players you can always write to a dvd-r/+r or dvd+r_dl dvd and play the hd-mpeg2 as a "Data-dvd".
Don't know about you but no one in my family cares about menus, they all say "Play the damn video".

I was also disappointed that the A2 doesn't technically support DVD+R(dual-layer), DVD-R_DL is supported, I did get 2 +R_DL's to work correctly but it was a real hassle, not worth it. I considered it a lot of work to make a hd-dvd, buy the other software, convert TS to PS, make menus burning and all, very time consuming. Not worth it for only 20 minutes of hd. I will say that the A2 did downconvert the hd to sd for playback on sd tv's nice.
I have to admit the PS3 is spoiling me, love the bluetooth remote, wireless controllers, usb interfaces, media server connectivity and all.
I have played hd-mpeg2 @ 60MBS CBR both direct on the PS3 & via it's Gigabit ethernet connection via a uPnP media server, didn't seem to break a sweat.

"I have to admit the PS3 is spoiling me, "
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Hey, I'm in complete agreement with you! It's a nice little machine. As I said somewhere up above when I started this thread, I was searching for more info on the PS3 because I was thinking of getting one... until of course I ran into this format standard change thing the blu ray's going though.

I said above that the PS3 was the ONE thing that Sony has done right so far with blu ray and I meant it.... Microsoft would do well to watch and learn from Sony and the PS3.

The fact is that blu ray was well on the way to the gutter until they came up with the PS3... and IMO... the PS3 is what put blu ray back on the map and is what is holding blu ray together. And that's the ironic and wierd part of it all.... the strongest player that blu ray has..... is a game machine.

Blink3times, PSP3 is more than a game console and was at it's beginning, being a media console for content was its goal----- one reason of many MS was so mad about BLuray, they did not control it. PSP3 has a few secrets that are not hard to find, but you need to look. PSP3 is Sony's future(up to 5years) camera media display console, future compression formats in the consumer market will find a friendly and easy to use home. The cell computing power is a overkill for most games, but future camera ics are advancing at fast rate, the current cell should be able handle the new computing requirements. Three years from now, many consumers will own many camrecorders that will have many format with different requirement for viewing(you must read between the lines). Market demand controls consumer camera products, once the market is addicted to 108024p and 108060p,( my favorite) ,the options in cameras and DSLr's will look like a dam break.

You miss my meaning. It has the PERSONA of a game machine. There are many (myself included) that don't want a "game machine" in my living room. I will gladly take a home entertainment system (which is what the PS3 really is), but I don't want a "game machine" . The kids have their room... I don't want them in my living room... and I don't think much differently from any other average family guy.

I meant that particular method of porn distribution is all but beaten.

Not by a long shot. AVN is held at the same time as CES, and attendees get much of their news information on their hotel doors along with the CES information. Not to mention that the AVN attendees attend the post-production tracks at CES. A couple hundred of the producers, editors, directors, and production personnel attend.
According to them, according to their industry, they're extremely excited about HD delivery. It's almost humorous, if you search this same forum just a few months ago, there were those crying the death knell of BD because Sony wouldn't openly support the adult content industry. Now you're doing exactly the opposite.
Spend a little time on the AVN site (news, not porn) and read about the adult industry. They're heavily gearing HD for women in particular, and that content isn't destined for the web. The adult industry is nearly as large as the Hollywood industry with far less production investment. In other words, far more profitable. HD in whatever disc format only serves to increase that margin by a significant amount.

I didn't miss your point, nor has sony ----- but media centers/sconsoles doesn't sell well because of cost. Gaming consoles can be sold under cost if gaming markets pays enough royalties. So this is an approach to put high tech gear media center at a cost that most manufacturers can not met ----- the consumer wins big time! I understand your "image" issue, but the closest media center with same computing and media gear is +4K with poor software. Maybe a new name tag for PSP3 would help the "image" issue. ;-)

Spot,
You're crystal ball is as good as mine (or anybody else's for that matter) but I for one stand by my belief... in the grand scheme of things it will make very little difference. The power isn't there anymore.

When the pendulum was swinging the other way and it looked like the porn industry was going HD DVD... everybody's response was that the war was over and HD DVD won. Well, it didn't happen. It won't happen with BD any more than it didn't happen for HD DVD.

The other thing is... you have to wonder what made Sony have a drastic change of heart.... sales pressure from HD DVD perhaps??

Read the article on THG, the Taiwanese got hold of BD duplicators and were in the process of rolling out product, so Sony decided to help with the authoring. In other words Sony didn't have a change of heart, it was kind of made for them.

Would be nice if they helped us with our authoring though, perhaps if all the pornographers here jumped up and down enough we might get some action.

Bob.

Sony didn't have a change of heart; Sony doesn't control BD disc replication. They have control over licensing, but they also can't discriminate against manufacturers.
I'm not going by a crystal ball; my opinion is based on trust of time-proven analysts and the industry press (which isn't nearly as proven) plus personal interaction with a lot of people in this industry.

Your original point was that DVDs don't matter to the adult industry any longer. This is simply not so. It's not their only means of distribution, but it's a very significant piece of their revenue streams.

Your second point was that the adult industry has little impact on BD or HD DVD's success. This too, is not accurate. While Walmart-type distribution has made a monstrous dent in the way movies are replicated and distributed, the adult industry has stayed stable, much moreso than most of Hollywood. Just look at the revenue streams for Vivid, Digital Playground, Wicked, or Xxotica. According to AVN, a sales drop of 3% is considered a "soft market." In our industry, 3% is a blip.

Free adult content doesn't threaten the mainstream adult world FWIW, or they claim it doesn't. Worldwide, it was a 92Billion$ industry in 2006, and expected to cross the 100B mark in 2007. "The pornography industry is larger than the revenues of the top technology companies combined: Microsoft, Google, Amazon, eBay, Yahoo!, Apple, Netflix and EarthLink combined" according to Jerry Ropelato. AVN says those figures are inflated by 10%.
Also according to Ropelato, HD disc sales (not broken down to HD DVD or BD) are expected to top 1.6B in 2007, and 4B in 2008. This is *not* a small market, and definitely is a player with impact no matter how they choose to go. No, it's not the same player as it was when the choice was Beta or VHS, it's bigger, more profitable, more powerful.

Back to your original post; I'm not sure why you're not grasping that the BD spec has not been re-written, merely appended and clarified. As an owner of both an HD DVD player and a BD player, I'm more bothered that new HD DVDs absolutely won't play in my new-ish player, but at least new BD will play in my BD player, I just won't get some of the extras. I can live with that, for a while...Although I do occasionally like watching extra features if the director has put some good content in there.

"I'm not going by a crystal ball; my opinion is based on trust of time-proven analysts and the industry press (which isn't nearly as proven) plus personal interaction with a lot of people in this industry."
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Who in turn are using their crystal ball. Need I remind you that there were a great many professional crystal balls that couldn't be more wrong during the VHS/BETA war.
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"Your original point was that DVDs don't matter to the adult industry any longer."
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That's NOT at all what I said. What I said is that they don't have the kind power of persuasion that they during VHS/BETA. As a result... IMO, the dent that the porn industry will do for BD will be the same as dent for HD DVD.... in other words... not much.

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"Back to your original post; I'm not sure why you're not grasping that the BD spec has not been re-written,...."
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Again Spot, you have my words dead wrong. I don't ever remember saying ANYTHING about the BD spec being "rewritten" and I'll ask you to point out where I said it.

I do think however that Sony is crazy for doing this in the middle of a format war. I was on my way to the idea of buying a PS3.... but not now..... and I am hardly the only one that has had a change of heart... be it temporary or otherwise.

As far your HD DVD player is concerned ... sorry you're having problems (can't say I ever have), but if you think this sort of thing is unique only to HD DVD then I urge you to spend some time on the AVS forum comparing BD with HD DVD..... I doubt you will be able to figure out which format gets banged worse for oddball problems..... THEY ALL HAVE THEM.

As far your HD DVD player is concerned ... sorry you're having problems (can't say I ever have),
I'm not having problems. Toshiba changed their spec in the middle of a format war, and has all but guaranteed that the new spec discs won't play in the old machines.
BD says that in all likelihood, the new discs will play in the old machines, and the old discs will of course, play in the new machines.
They didn't change anything. They finalized a spec. Had they waited til now to release any product or spec, then they'd absolutely have fallen behind, wouldn't you agree?

Again Spot.... Can't say I'm having any problems..... and I have the A1.... probably one of the older A1's since I bought pretty early in the HD game. Boot time is a little slow but other than that , it has performed pretty flawlessly.

ADDED NOTE:

Although I will admit, Toshiba must have changed SOMETHING. I burn a lot of Hybrid HD DVD's and I've always used DD5.1 sound. People with the second generation machines report for the most part that they have to burn with MPA because they can't get the DD5.1 to work.

I'm not having problems. Toshiba changed their spec in the middle of a format war, and has all but guaranteed that the new spec discs won't play in the old machines.
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That's an exaggeration of what Toshiba did. They made a change when they introduced firmware 2.0 on the HD-A1 player (which we both have). They are now up to firmware 2.3. Mine came with firmware 1.4 and I never updated it. Some people had some big problems with the newer firmware. The movie producers produced SOME titles that required firmware 2.0 and above most notably "King Kong" and "Miami Vice".

Here is a list of the current HD DVD titles. The ones that say "Requires Latest Firmware" either won't play on my player unless I update the firmware (which I will not do) or will play without ALL the disc's features.

As you can see from that list there are ONLY SIX titles that require firmware 2.0 and above for first generation players. I just bought the HD DVD title "300" yesterday. Plays flawlessly on my HD-A1 with original firmware.

All the second generation players such as the HD-A2 play ALL the titles on the list.

John

The new triple layer discs due out later this year will not play on legacy/older machines, according to Toshiba and other industry players.

If interested Spot... it takes maybe an hour or so to upgrade the firmware.... just plug the machine into the internet and follow the instructions. The front display screen will display "xx% complete" while updating.

****DO NOT DISTURB THE MACHINE WHILE IT'S UPDATING****

When it's finished it shuts itself down. FWIW... I have had no problem with the V2 firmware. But you should be aware that it's a bit like flashing the bios on your computer.... screw up and you've got big problems.

The new triple layer discs due out later this year will not play on legacy/older machines, according to Toshiba and other industry players
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"Triple layer"? I'll have to look into that. Haven't heard about it yet.
Thanks.

John

I was only able to find one recent article that discussed "titles" in triple format. It is one anime that was released this month in California. The article mentioned updating firmware on the players, but nothing about Toshiba changing the specs and ensuring the obsolescence of their current or first generation players. The other articles were mostly from January when Toshiba first announced their 51 GB triple layer HD DVDroms at CES and how that competed with Blu-Ray.

Where did you read that the triple layer movie titles (if they take off) will be incompatible with current players?

John

"The new triple layer discs due out later this year will not play on legacy/older machines, according to Toshiba and other industry players."
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LOL

It's beginning to sound like you're LOOKING for reasons to dump on Toshiba. Let's take this one step at a time shall we? They haven't even got the burners out yet. I figure by the time I need to use a triple layer disk, it'll be time for a new machine anyway.

Look Spot... If you ask me who's going to win this war, I would be inclined to say there is a good chance that neither of them will. I don't believe for a minute that the studios or the porn industry is going to solve this at all. It will be the general population that puts one of these formats on the map. The studios and the porn industry will bend in what ever direction the population goes.... and the population will most likely go for the best price. The problem is that the population has very little interest in this technology at all. Most people are perfectly happy with DVD's and this war will not be settled with out them. Meanwhile, the longer that this continues the more likely the chance of another faster, better technology/format coming along and stealing the show.

If you ask me who's got the best format... I would have to say that's an even ballgame. Both formats produce a good image, and there are many out there with both formats that state they can not tell the difference. They both exhibit unique qualities that make them equally as good.

If you ask me who's got the best machine.... hands down, it's Sony with the PS3.... sony was throwing gutter balls until this machine came along, and I believe it's what is holding blu ray together right now.... because it sure isn't their prices!

If you ask me who's run a better, stronger, more together campaign..... Toshiba BY FAR! What Toshiba has put out so far, all fits together, it all works. Sony has bits and pieces out all over the place and you have to figure out which piece works with which.