The Avid DNxHD codec will come in a .mov container. Whether there will be a practical working limit for the number of events in .mov containers on a VegasPro timeline is upto considerable debate. For example consider if we are talking about 50 1 sec events or 50 10 minute events. etc????

For my working with .mov container in both Cineform and DSLR raw - I never use them literally as originals on a VegasPro timeline - but either rewrap (Cineform) or transcode DSLR raw. Digital Intermediates are your best friend.

Vegasaur is a utility that can create proxies - just as VegasPro app can natively. One word - a DI is NOT a Proxy!

You should consider reviewing the professional help that has already been given to you in this forum in your other threads and re-thinking your goto plan.

For reference:

http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=4&MessageID=921879


http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?MessageID=921779

http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?Forum=4&MessageID=921475

http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?Forum=4&MessageID=921463

NormanPCN, thanks for the kind response.

Vegasaur 2 was my mistake... I intended to say "MagicYUV codec" of which I have read about on this forum...

but regarding Vegasaur as a transcoder... does it offer improvements over Handbrake... I would guess so since it seems they charge for Vegasaur...

(Assuming my understand is correct... isn't a "transcoder" basically a video format converter?)

And regarding the stickey at the top on "New markups" thanks again... should have noticed it.

Vegasaur is a utility that allows several different kinds of manipulation.
1) yes, a transcoder manager - simply means you are managing a transcode
2) A proxy builder just as native VegasPro - only with better management.

Transcoders are tools - just like VegasPro app that renders one format to another.

videoTguy,

Thanks for your considerable help as always... even though on occasion I struggle to understand all of it...

So tell me I'm understanding your post correctly...

1 - "rewrap (Cineform)"
So you use Cineform to change the container from MOV to... what for editing in Vegas?

"Digital Intermediates"
- Since I'm not a movie producer and have been relative inactive for quite awhile I was unfamiliar with this term until you used it in a prior post.
- What is the difference in a "Digital Intermediate" and an "intermediate 4:x:x format" used during editing?

2 - Transcode:
What is the difference in Transcoding with a tool like Handbrake and putting the clips on the Vegas timeline and re-rendering... other than maybe the time to load the clips and a few additional clips?

3 - Reviewing the professional help provide:

I have carefully read and re-read each post from the generous contributors here on the forum and the issue is probably not the lack of good advice but the gaps in prior-knowledge of the reader.

And other than recording live uncompressed video to a digital recording device like the Blackmagic Design HyperDeck Shuttle 2 which it appears in real time encodes and saves it as in an Avid 4:2:2 format... which can either be used in some circumstances on the Vegas timeline or "transcoded" and then used on the Vegas time line in some other "intermediate 4:2:2 format"...
I have seen no clear and obtainable alternative.

Thank you (and others) for their great help.

but regarding Vegasaur as a transcoder... does it offer improvements over Handbrake...

Handbrake can only encode a few select formats. Vegasaur, as a tool of Vegas, will encode to any format you can encode to via Vegas. Since you have an eye on DI formats this can include Cineform, Magic YUV, Sony YUV via the AVI Video for Windows render template.

Remember that AVI vfw has a Windows limitation of either 2GB or 4GB, depending on the type.

"Remember that AVI vfw has a Windows limitation of either 2GB or 4GB, depending on the type."

??

When I transfer a DV tape I end up with a 13 GB or thereabouts AVI file per tape if I don't segment it at each scene.

AVI has a 2 or 4 GB filesize limit, OpenDML (AVI version 2.0) has no such limitation and Vegas reads and writes these AVI files just fine.

As your main aim in what you're trying to achieve is better chroma subsampling I would suggest transcoding to the XDCAM EX 50mbps codec in a MXF wrapper. It's an 8 bit 4:2:2 MPEG-2 codec that Vegas supports very well and natively. It also allows for quite a large number of audio channels which can be a plus. As it's only 50Mbps it's reasonably light on disk space usage.

As already suggested if you are having to transcode a number of files regularly then a tool such as Vegasaur will automate the process for you.

Bob.

The question is also if you have recorded the footage in 10bit 422. if that is true, please be aware that Vegas will not be able to decoded DNxHD or DNxHR with 10bit - but with 8bit only. To maintain a 10bit workflow it will be necessary to transcode the DNxHD or ProRes to a codec that is decoded in Vegas as 10bit really. Can be Cineform for example.

Thanks to everybody for their contributions here.

Bob,

I like your suggestion of trans-coding to XDCAM EX 50mbps codec in a MXF wrapper using a tool such as Vegasaur. I'll be adding Vegasaur to our list of tools to buy.

Wolfgang,

You said "if have recorded the footage in 10bit 422 Vegas will not be able to decode DNxHD with 10bit - but with 8bit only."

Well I need a little help on this.

According to the Douglas Spotted Eagle at about 18:45 in...

"the HDMI out is 10-bit but the lowest 2bits are null as in all HDMI channels so it is really 8 bit video."

(fyi - Can not find any info from Sony on the cam's HDMI out other than it is HDMI)

So the question is:

if we capture our uncompressed video out of the HDMI connector on the camera on a digital recording device like the Blackmagic Design HyperDeck Shuttle 2 that converts/translates the uncompressed video to the DNxHD format in real time... Do we end up with 10bit 422 footage that Vegas will not be able to decode as you mention?

And if so can it be trans coded to something that we can use using, as Bob mentioned, a tool like Vegasur?


Thanks for helping work through this!

Will,

well, I do not know the Sony HXR-NX5U really, but I have seen from the technical specification that this camera offers also an SDI-out - and it seems to offer 10bit too:

"10-bit 4:2:2HD SD-SDI & HDMI outputs."
found here https://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/product-HXRNX5U/

Well, I do not know if DSE is right or wrong with the opinion that the hdmi out offers only 8bit (in 10bit where two bits are filled up with zeros). But today we know from cameras like the Panasonic GH4 that a 10bit output is possible from a hdmi too - since the GH4 does not offer any other output then the micro-HDMI. So if you would have an GH4 and the Atomos Shogun, you would be able to record 10bit! But as said, I do not know what the NX5 delivers using the hdmi out really.

I ask myself following: would it not be better for you guys to use a recorder that offers a SDI-in? Mainly for the reason that your NX5 offers an SDI out! You could think about to purchase the Atomos Samurai Blade or - if you wish to be secure for the future - maybe the Atomos Shogun? These units would offer you SDI-in -and for sure you could record then 10bit also with your NX5. I would think about that.

Ok, lets assume that a 10bit file - lets assume from your NX5 using the SDI out and an unit like the Atomos Samurai Blade. You have been aware that there are different quality settings for DNxHD - not every setting for DNxHD records 10bit, but there are some settings that do so. So if you have such a 10bit DNxHD file, and if you import that in Vegas - what happes is that Vegas will interpretate that as 8bit only very very likely! Sure it will read the file - and DNxHD is the better choice in Vegas then ProRes. Bu it will read these files as 8 bit very likely only.

We have seen that for sure with 4K ProRes 422, when using the GH4 with 10bit out and the Atomos Shogun. These files are decoed as 8bit only. I have not tested it for DNxHD or DNxHR by now - but that is very likely to be true also for this files that they will be decoded as 8bit only in Vegas.

What you will have to do is to transcode the DNxHD or ProRes file to a codec that can be interpretated as 10bit in Vegas - if you want to have a 10bit workflow. That could be XAVC or Cineform, for example. So a codec that is native implemented in Vegas.

The question is more if you wish to use a 10bit workflow - but given your camera that seems to be able to deliver a 10bit output, it would be a shame to ignore that possibility. My opinion at least.

And if you decide to go for 10bit - then you should not use the Vegasaur too. The transcoding to an intermediate file should not happen in Vegas, if you wish to maintain the 10bit! What I have done for my Shogun 10bit 422 ProRes (or now also DNxHR files) was to use TMPGenc as a batch converter from the Shogun files to Cineform.

Cineform, by the way, comes within the free version of GoPro Studio - so if you install the free GoPro Studio version in your system, then it can be found by TMPGenc for transcoding. And Vegas is able to read Cineform files anyway, because the codec is implemented native in Vegas.

So with your system it is possible to go for a 10bit workflow - if you decide to do so.

Will-3 - the answers to your search have been answered countless times in your many threads. READ all of them again.
1) You are barking up the wrong tree to achieve 10bit - you don't need it - what you need is good 4:2:2 from a good sharp sensor in the camera head for GREEN SCREEN - better than the Sony camera - rent please.
2) Even if you achieve 10bit out of SDI - you will never be able to manipulate in VegasPro as an assembled timeline with genmedia and/or effects in compositing mode and still not be capped at 8 bits. Please heed this advice or suffer costly dissapointment. Wolfgang offers you a good summary of where you stand - with the one proviso that 10bit workflow inside of a practical VegasPro project is not going to happen.

3) Keep your goals in mind - to shoot good green screen - the most challenges you face as I have said before have nothing to do with editing in VegasPro.

There are a lot of people who statet that they would not purchase a 8bit camera today any more. So to suggest that 10bit is not necessary at all - well that is your opinion but not a general opinion.

And sure it is possible to to handle 10bit footage in Vegas! I do that with my old i7 2600K 4.2 Ghz overclocked. I do that with Cineform UHD footage transcoded from my Shogun/ProRes. Vegas can handle that. Since my old PC has to be replaced for UHD/4K and 10bit in the future, I set the project settings to 8bit - edit my project - and set it for rendering to 32 bit floating point (with disabled cuda preview support). That works like a charm and is recommended in the SCS-Vegas-helpfile too.

Sure - but if somebody wants not to use his 10bit capable camera - then it is his choice to stay with 8bit. :)

I was responding to the concerns of Will-3 rather than making a general statement about 8bit. Sure, like any professional I would like a 10bit workflow in VegasPro to be achievable. IT isn't. So if the person wants to shoot 10bit, stay 10bit, and output 10bit to a destination then there are good ways to do that now -VegasPro is not one of them.

On the other hand, shooting greenscreen - given the necessity for careful lighting control in a studio situation - can be nicely achieved with 8bit sources -but best if with a format of 4:2:2. That is why the recent offerings of 4:2:2 codecs in some prosumer cameras including Canon and JVC have a lot going for them at a very reasonable price.

videoTguy, thank you for your comments... now be kind enough to allow me to share some of mine.

1 - It seems you are suggesting we need a better camera than the NX5U and it is my opinion... that for our needs... that is unnecessary.

We don't need an IBM Mainframe or DEC PDP-11 we just need a good PC and the proper software and tools.

The quality of the Chroma Key need be no better than to satisfy the 99%.

Here is where we are coming from.

A few years back we produced a nightly television show in our studio with only a Sony PD-150, 4-talking heads and lot's of footage and stills shot around our community.

The talking heads would come to the studio individually, put on their makeup, read over their copy, and sit in front of the green screen, look at the teleprompter and the PD-150 would record the footage via fire-wire to a pc in the studio that captured it in Sony Vegas 8.

We would later batch chroma-key the results so that the talent appeared with the proper background, their name under them and the name of the show upper left or right.

Now that we had a bunch of chroma-keyd clips we would import all that onto the Vegas 8 timeline along with all the other assets, sponsors spots, promo's, etc, put it all together and render it to tape and deliver it to the cable company for broadcast.

Never had a problem. Never had a complaint about the quality of the chroma-key or the production in general... in fact we had compliments about the show.
5-new 30 minute shows a week and it ran for 6-months.

We created all the sponsors spots in the same way with the same equipment. They all loved it.

Yes, the NatGeo photogs and other fine professionals would have seen a million things wrong with what we did but we were not producing for them. The circumstances didn't call for it and the budget wouldn't allow for it and the customers and viewers were happy with what wed... and so were we.

We started a much larger project right after that but other interest diverted our attention and this is about the nth attempt to crank it back up again... and that means a lot of re-education and a lot of catch up and thanks to you and the other patient professionals here on the Vegas Pro forum we are moving along with that catching up and re-education.

In terms of history we started with Vegas right after Vegas-4 was available (and before Sony owned it) and flew to a Creative Cow Video Conference/Show in LA to get educated on the values and basic usage of Vegas in a day long session led by Douglas Spotted Eagle... who needs no introduction.

We continued the education with Gary Kleiner's CD tutorials starting with Vegas 4 I think and have bought and went through his later updated tutorials as well even though its been awhile.

The problem is that unlike professionals such as yourself we don't do video every day (wish we could) but have other business interest that demand time and in the fast moving world of video I'm sure it is hard to keep up even if it is your only occupation... and extremely difficult for someone with only an occasional project.

Bottom line is we think we can meet our goals with the camera we have and put the money we would spend to upgrade to better use elsewhere. Certanily the NX5U is a cut-above the PD-150... at least in our opinion. Bigger sensors at a minimum.

And with regard to renting equipment it is not a possibility as we will be shooting daily for a few months if not longer... both in and out of the studio.

And, I can't believe that Sony would put an HDMI port on the XDCAM such that the output from it could not be captured and edited in Vegas Pro 13 !

So we are down now to the question of how to best do that... and while I thought Bob's answer was it and we were about done here then Wolfgang raised the problem with 10-bit video in Vegas...

And that is where we will research next.

If the cam's hdmi port outputs 10-bits with the least significant bits null then it is actually only 8-bit video... as I understand it.

So my next question as in my previous post (which has not been answered in any of my other treads) is...

1 - If the real/time hdmi output of the cam is captured and converted to DNxHD can a good transcoder like Vegausar take that and transcode it into something that will work on the Vegas timeline?

2 - Or is it simply impossible to take the HDMI real time output from the cam and get it into a format that Vegas can edit? If not impossible then how?

3 - The fact that the NX5U is an 8-bit camera gets confusing when you start talking about the HDMI port outputting "10-bit" uncompressed video with the two least significant bits set to null... does that make other devices see the HDMI out as 10-bit video?

Finally, I want to be clear that the help we have received here on this forum has been great and unselfishly provided by knowledgeable people, and I want to make sure they get the thanks they deserve... and that includes you videoTguy.

Lash-up your HDMI connector with strain relief in the studio - to a live BlackMagic Intensity Pro card for $199.00 - record to very fast SSD drive of 500GB on a good compatible motherboard or SATA3 or RAID. Record at the highest bitrate in BlackMagic codec that a speed-test of your local facility as it allows..
Now your file is ready for VegasPro - 8bit 4:2:2 for compositing in the NLE - no transcoding necessary.

I do not know why here is still stated that one cannot work in Vegas with 10bit. That is very very wrong.
Here we have a camera that seems to deliver trud 10bit too. So this is still a valid possibility.

For the Blackmagic codec - I would test the playback behaviour of that codec on the existing machines in Vegas. I do not think that the playback behaviour will be great. But test it if you like.

Will

If you buy the Hyperdeck Shuttle 2 keep in mind that it too has a SDI input. The SDI connectors are by far for durable compared to the HDMI connector. However, you will need a SDI to Mini SDI cable. The SDI connection also has a greater chance to trigger record start/stop from the camera.

@Wolfgang:

I am intrigued by your use of TMPGEnc to transcode to Cineform. I have both GoPro Studio and TMPGEnc installed on my system. But when I try to render, TMPGEnc does not show a Cineform option. Is there something special you had to set up to make it work?

Thanks in advance.

I figured out using Cineform, thanks to John Rofrano's excellent tutorial.

http://johnrofrano.com/training/video-tutorials/creating-cineform-templates/

Maybe too late, but this is a good read too.