Installing and using the Acid DNxHD codec in Vegas

will-3 wrote on 3/31/2015, 5:31 PM

Maybe this thread will serve to cap off the discussion in two other somewhat similar threads posted in the past here on the forum and referenced at the end of this post...

We are about to order the Blackmagic Design HyperDeck Shuttle 2 so we can come out of our cam uncompressed and record on an SSD and end up with Avid DNxHD 4:2:2 files as a Digital Intermediate or intermediate format for editing in Sony Vegas 13.

So we about to instal the Acid DNxHD codec into our copy of Vegas 13.

The questions:

1 - In one of the forums below someone said there were problems with too many MOV files on the Vegas timeline... is that still true?

2 - If so would a solution be to re-render all the MOV files to another Digital Intermediate format like Sony YUV codec, or Vegasaur 2 and then begin our work with those files?

3 - I have read good comments on the Vegasaur 2 intermediate codec but wondered in the work flow you get your content to that format?

3a - Do you do as suggested in "2" above and take your media files in whatever intermediate format they happen to be in and re-render them to Vegasaur 2?

3b - Or do you buy big enough disk to capture all your footage as uncmpressed and then load that into Vegas and re-render to Vegasaur 2... or some other intermediate codec like the Sony YUV ?

4 - Any other issues in Vegas if we just try to work with the native DNxHD files ?

5 - What other work flow should we consider? (We are about to pull the trigger on this and get rolling so last chance to save us from any unexpected grief :-)

The two referenced threads are listed below and worth reading for anyone wondering about the same issues.

thanks again for the help everyone.

1 - Videos taken on "Avid DNxHD Quicktime"
http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=4&MessageID=911402

2 - Editing .mov files, rendering blu-ray
http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=4&MessageID=911353

( how the heck do you do links in a post here?)

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Comments

farss wrote on 4/1/2015, 2:54 PM

1- Given that your cameras have a HD-SDI output I would move heaven and earth to avoid using HDMI as the interconnection. I cannot say strongly enough how unreliable HDMI is. In your scenario of fast turnaround production this is going to be even more of an issue.

2- Forget about all things HDMI, use HD-SDI, see my reply to 1.

3- Forget about the whole 10bit thing. The SMPTE specification for HD-SDI says the stream must carry 10bits. As you've already been informed that can mean that two null values bits are there. The recording device may or may not throw the two LSBs away. I've yet to hear of or find any issue myself caused by Vegas having to decode a 10 bit codec compared to a 8 bit variant of the codec, Vegas will do the same thing, simply ignore the two LSBs.

Vegas will correctly handle 10 bit video in its 32bit float pipeline. I tested this years ago. It's an irrelevant diversion. With a camera such as the one we're discussing there's nothing to be gained from 10bit video. If you were shooting with RED or F5 class cameras then 10bits mightn't even be enough but you're not.

I would strongly urge you to forget about recording directly into a PC. I have done it with 10bit SD from Digital Betacam but HD is even more demanding. You need fast disk arrays and have to be 100% certain that nothing software wise in the PC will cause the system to drop frames. Stick with using something like the Hyperdeck Shuttle and use BMD qualified SSDs. You then transfer the files from the SSD over USB or SATA or whatever. It doesn't matter what interface you use as you don't have to do this in real time so there's zero risk of data loss.

Given what you're doing it's quite likely that DNxHD or ProRes will work without grief for you, I doubt you'll ever have 50 clips or a clip longer than 1 hour on the T/L of a project. If you do run into an issue THEN think about transcoding to XDCAM EX.

Bob.

videoITguy wrote on 4/1/2015, 3:26 PM

Agree with Bob, very much that the HDMI connection is a very weak point in your capture plans. If you have got SDI and can wrangle it out of the camera - then that is the signal chain that is much preferable....but it won't be easy, prove very expensive, and ultimately it's value of improvement immeasurable. Cost effectiveness is an important language element in business.

As for most bang for the buck...
1) Continue to record to in-camera media - transcode to a DI like Cineform, MagicYUV or such - composite in VegasPro - make emphasis on green-screen set and lighting rather than signal or workflow.

will-3 wrote on 4/1/2015, 4:04 PM

OK, time to stop dithering and break out the plastic.

Bob, thank you for your last comments. I had spent part of the afternoon researching buying another PC for use in the studio with the "Blackmagic Design Intensity Pro car" and the proper mother board and drives...

But your comments brought me back to where I had landed a day or two ago and that is to just go ahead and buy the Hyperdeck Shuttle 2, a proper SSD, and SSD deck to get the files off the SSD and into the editing system after each shoot.

Again I want to thank each of you for your contributions and help... videoTguy, musicvid10, John Cline, Wolfgang, OldSmoke, farss aka Bob, NormanPCN, and others have replied to this and my other post.

I'm sure I'll have more questions along the way but hopefully the frequency of my new threads will slowly decline as we begin to get to work on this project.

Will

Wolfgang S. wrote on 4/2/2015, 4:51 AM

"But when I try to render, TMPGEnc does not show a Cineform option. Is there something special you had to set up to make it work?"

Have you found it by now? You can access the Cineform codec in TMPGenc for sure - if you need further help please let me know.

Wolfgang S. wrote on 4/2/2015, 4:58 AM

"If the two least significant bits are either...

a - out[it as zeros by the camera's hdmi or sid connectors...
b - or if Vegas simply ignores the two least significant bits of the 10-bit byte...
Or
c - is the camera's hdmi and sdi ports outputing 10-bit bytes and using all the bits to encode the current sample?

If "c" above then what you suggest seems quite possible... "

Unfortunatle b) is not staight forward - only some specific codecs are decoded in Vegas as 10bit. ProRes and DNxHD decoded as 8bit only - but XAVC or Cineform are.

For c) your specific camera I cannot say anything. But SDI output 10bits typically.

"Vegas will correctly handle 10 bit video in its 32bit float pipeline."

Unfortunately not - at least not for UHD/4K. We have seen that UHD-ProRes is decoded as 8bit only, even in a 32bit floating point project where one would expect that it is decoded as 10bit. For sure, in a 8 bit project setting everything is decoded as 8bit only.

farss wrote on 4/2/2015, 5:39 AM

Vegas will correctly handle 10 bit video in its 32bit float pipeline.

Unfortunately not - at least not for UHD/4K. We have seen that UHD-ProRes is decoded as 8bit only, even in a 32bit floating point project where one would expect that it is decoded as 10bit. For sure, in a 8 bit project setting everything is decoded as 8bit only.

That's almost certainly a QuickTime problem. Irrelevant to the question of Vegas correctly handling 10 bit video through its 32bit pipeline.

As I said I have tested his and it does work. For my tests I used the Sony 10bit YUV codec in an AVI wrapper to avoid any QT silliness. The Sony YUV codec is pretty much the same as the BMD codec.

Bob.

John_Cline wrote on 4/2/2015, 7:02 AM

One more option that apparently hasn't been discussed is getting a Blackmagic DeckLink Mini Recorder PCIe capture card for HD-SDI and HDMI, it lists for $145. Next is buying the GoPro (Cineform) Studio Premium software for $299, using the included HDLink software you can either capture directly to the 10-bit Cineform codec in real-time or use it to batch convert other files to the Cineform codec or change containers from MOV <> AVI in case you need to move from PC <> MAC.

As an added bonus, you get Cineform's FirstLight software which has their proprietary Active Metadata. You can do completely non-destructive color correction, apply LUTs including film stock emulation, add overlays, crop and zoom and more, the codec applies everything upon playback or editing. You can change anything at any time without modifying the original video data, it's revolutionary and I use it all the time.

Cineform Active Metadata Information

FirstLight Demo

videoITguy wrote on 4/2/2015, 8:50 AM

Now, then, John Cline, you are talkin! I had overlooked mentioning this - as I use the Intensity Pro - but indeed here is another great solution that comes with two major proviso's.
1) Adequate motherboard structure and config to support the card without problematic gotchas. and
2) Adequate and fast storage including large SSD or Raid in a desktop.

And as Bob and Wolfgang have just in fact stated -the workflow over SDI, Hyperdeck, etc will only be usable in a MAC environs and rules out using VegasPro as a one-stop environs for 10bit handling. Good grief, Will-3 , are you still there?

Wolfgang S. wrote on 4/2/2015, 11:00 AM

@ dxdy

you can find my TMPGenc setting here:
http://www.videotreffpunkt.com/index.php/Attachment/4266-15-Shogun-im-TMPGenc-JPG/

Wolfgang S. wrote on 4/2/2015, 11:06 AM

"That's almost certainly a QuickTime problem. Irrelevant to the question of Vegas correctly handling 10 bit video through its 32bit pipeline."

Unfortunately you are wrong, Bob. Right, we are talking about a QT problem - but it is the question how Vegas has build up the interface that is used for this decoding. And what we have found is that ALL codecs that have not been implemented nativ in Vegas are decoded at 8bit only at the moment.

So you are restricted to nativ implemented codecs if you are looking for a 10bit workflow in Vegas (and sure, you have to set the project properties to a 32 bit floating point mode). And the codecs that can be decoded in Vegas as 10bit are:
- Sony YUV 10 Bit
- HDCAM SR
- XAVC
- Panasonic P2
- Picture sequence with DPX or EXR
- CineForm as decoder

The list has not been developed by me but by Marco, by the way. And Marco an dI have spent a lot of time to analyse the situation in Vegas - something that we betatester do from time to time. :)

But other codecs like DNxHR or ProRes are decodec as 8bit only. And right, I remember that I have testet also a Blackmagic uncompressed codec - that is not on the list. It was also decoded as 10bit.

John_Cline wrote on 4/2/2015, 4:11 PM

videoITguy, I haven't had any motherboard issues with the three Blackmagic cards I'm running, I guess I'm just lucky. I don't use them in Vegas much, I just use the stand-alone HDLink app for capture and conversion to Cineform in real-time. Hard drive speed hasn't been an issue either since writing a Cineform-compressed stream is well within the capabilities of any single hard drive.

videoITguy wrote on 4/2/2015, 5:06 PM

FYi, John Cline, I am like you, I have had no problems with BlackMagic products and its because I know I have years of config experience with difficult combinations. At first thought, I might be lucky as well.

But here are some hard facts about the industry. Bread and butter sellers like BandH Photo of NewYork City dread selling these products because they have one of the highest rates of complaints, dissatisfaction, and embattled returns of any product line they carry. This is partly due to being consumed by amateurs who don't do the homework. It is also part and parcel of the fact that BlackMagic management does not care much about low-end sales and offers little consistent support.

But then even with their nose stuck up in the air, I am familiar with Broadcast video vendors who report they do not like selling the low-end either because of consumer complaints and such tight market margins.

So with this background in mind, I always warn potential buyers of the sticky-wicket they might get into.

And oh yes, mentioning difficult product lines - TAKE the Hyperdeck offering which should have been the cats meow BUT has really turned off more than its share of the market.

dxdy wrote on 4/2/2015, 6:05 PM

@WolfgangS:

Many thanks, I would not have figured it out otherwise.

farss wrote on 4/2/2015, 8:05 PM

[I]"And as Bob and Wolfgang have just in fact stated -the workflow over SDI, Hyperdeck, etc will only be usable in a MAC environs and rules out using VegasPro as a one-stop environs for 10bit handling"[/I]

Neither I or Wolfgang have stated any such thing.
The OP doesn't need handling of 10 bit video and Vegas will quite happily handle 10 bit video through its 8 bit pipeline. Heck from what I've read FCP 7 only had an 8 bit pipeline and OSX doesn't support 10bit video so your entire statement is wrong and misleading.
Why you keep banging away on the 10bit issue serves only to confuse the OP and the only reason I keep posting about it is to correct incorrect information.

Bob.

videoITguy wrote on 4/2/2015, 9:33 PM

Bob, where are you now.??? I was the first and only person in this thread to request the OP merely seek out 8bit solutions. You say he doesn't need 10bit, and while that may be your well-intentioned position now, the OP has only persisted on his own insights and sought out the 10bit positioning. He has totally ignored the 8bit answers given.

Again I see the OP seeking 4:2:2 to come out of his SDI port - and while that may be possible, I would still question whether his camera is being in a position to deliver.
At any rate the OP is in a position to receive 10bits, even if two are null, achieve 4:2:2 and have a capture original even if its at a wasted bit-rate.

videoITguy wrote on 4/11/2015, 2:35 PM

A real world evaluation of the usefulness (or lack thereof ) in using an expensive Hyperdeck shuttle to record the HDMI output..of a camera...

FDR-AX100 VIDEO OUTPUT OVER HDMI -this test into Hyperdeck shuttle2 by Mark Watson while in Location: Kanagawa-ken, Japan

All external video recordings were clean (no overlay information),
even when the recording was made with the camera in STBY mode.

Summation: A few of the recording modes were checked for any quality improvement when compared to the in-camera recording and no improvement was noted. Samples consisted of Hyperdeck Shuttle2 ,
ProRes (HQ) 422 (220Mbps) and Uncompressed 10-bit (1,326Mbps) clips.
sample find: XAVC S HD 30p REC AUTO setting of camera- while 1080i was the output that Hyperdeck recorded into the above setting codec.. in other words there is really no gain for all the pain of hooking into BMD Hyperdeck.

OldSmoke wrote on 4/11/2015, 4:30 PM

No surprise there. The AX100 doesn't output 422.

I bought the Hyperdeck Shuttle about two years back for my Z5U but returned it after two weeks for the same reason. Z5U does output 422 via HDMI but still only get as much as the sensors can deliver. Yes there was a difference in quality but not sufficient to justify the additional work in post; especially when the final delivery is DVD.