is everybody happy?

Comments

Coursedesign wrote on 5/24/2008, 2:16 PM
The complexity of modern NLEs can easily give the impression that it is only possible to learn one and stick with it.

I've seen this in other fields too, first in mainframe computers when they were all proprietary. I found that once a person had learned one system, they were exhausted, and they just did not want to go through this level of effort again with a different manufacturer's operating system.

in the IBM 360 days, people went to trade schools to learn how to work with mainframes, and "actually printing something" was covered in the second year... Before that there were only debug screens/terminal lists.

I prefer Vegas to any other NLE, particularly when it is assisted by scripts such as Ultimate S so I can do a lot of things much faster than with any other NLE.

After several years of using Vegas only, I found that Final Cut Studio was significantly more capable for many types of broadcast work, thanks to Motion and very powerful plug-ins.

Then recently I found myself facing an enormous (for me) amount of scripted material to edit, with double sound and multiple takes and oodles of little bits and pieces shot separately added. I needed much better media management than either Vegas or Final Cut could offer (it may be of some consolation to Vegas users that FCP's media manager is the #1 source of complaints there too).

So when I got a chance to get a deal on the current Avid Media Composer, I jumped on it. In addition to the best media management of any NLE (by a wide margin), I also got AutoSync that automatically syncs the separately recorded audio (double sound) with the picture, and ScriptSync that automatically lines up each line in the script with the right spot on the timeline (through interpretation and matching of each voice in the dialog track.

So it seems like the right tool for this job, and on top of that it is a very efficient editor. I used to refer to it as "elbow editing," when you are just doing very focused and fast rolled-up-sleeves assembly and trimming, and I think Avid still does this better than anyone else.

Some editing facility owners say they have noticed that identical types of jobs to do standard editing consistently bill the editing suites at one third less time on Avid than FCP. I think that is because so many FCP editors insist on using the mouse for everything (and preferably a one-button mouse of course).

Actually, you can do about as much on the keyboard in FCP as in Avid, and then things go faster.

Having said that, I still always preferred Avid's trimming over FCP or Vegas or PP.

Now overall, for non-scripted material without massive media management needs, Vegas beats every other NLE just by virtue of its different paradigm, working like a multitrack sound editor. This is a phenomenal time saver, and I think the other NLEs will go there too,

Remember when Vegas was about the only NLE to have a mixed format timeline? This was never promoted, just taken for granted. So nobody knew about it, and the competition added it to great fanfare.

I still don't see a major educational effort from SCS to make sure that editors everywhere know what Vegas can do.

In the absence of that ("like.no.other" doesn't quite cut it as an education), I think it is going to be up to us to spread the word about how incredibly capable and fast-to-work-with Vegas is.

Pros need to know that Vegas can let them get the jobs they usually do done in less time, which is increasingly important at a time of decreasing billing. Customers aren't willing to pay as much today, so if you want to be profitable you need to do more projects, which is only possible if you can work more efficiently.

Why is it up to us to spread the message?

If we don't, we may not have a Vegas much longer. Some bean counter may decide that it's not profitable enough, putting some of those resources into Vegas Movie Studio instead, and firing the rest.

So do what you can to get the word out about Vegas and what it can do that others can't.

If you don't, you may have nothing to complain about soon...
craftech wrote on 5/24/2008, 3:54 PM
Bjorn,

When I suggested a MAC version of Vegas a few weeks ago, I thought that would address some of the marketing points you and some others mentioned.

John
Coursedesign wrote on 5/24/2008, 4:21 PM
Many people have thought that FCP is invincible on the Mac platform.

But both Avid and Adobe have already thought otherwise.

I think it might soon make sense from a sales standpoint (Apple already has a 66% market share of $1,000+ computers, and that number is likely to up further), but I suspect it would be very difficult from an engineering standpoint.

Why? Because the Vegas team bet the farm on using all Microsoft interfaces and technology, thinking that Microsoft would surely remain the leader in this field.

This has become a bit of a shotgun marriage that it would be very difficult to get out of.

With Bill Gates no longer involved, Microsoft is now a Ballmer company. That changes a lot of things for Microsoft's partners too.
Terje wrote on 5/25/2008, 4:45 AM
You have to care.

Amen to that, and this is really important. If a company as such "doesn't care" it usually means that management is going bad. I have seen it in a number of companies, and the times I have been working for a company while this happens I have quit immediately once noticing it. As a customer of some companies who "doesn't care" I have also learned to know the signs from this side, and to me SCS is currently exhibiting a number of signs of "not caring". That troubles me.

Typical signs of not caring
1/ Features are added willy-nilly, independent of usability and need
2/ New features tend to use cool technologies and/or third-party apps
3/ Well-known bugs are not dealt with in a timely manner or at all
4/ Highly requested (but "boring") features are not added

So, from my standpoint, and this is for me only, others might disagre
1/ Media Manager - a willy-nilly feature that was not that important and also
not that well done, maybe mainly because I think MS SQL server is a joke
2/ The new titler, not only is it a buggy mess, but it is implemented in C#, which
appears to be a major source of problems, for example stability and performance.
- 32 bits anyone? This "feature" can't even have undergone mimimum basic
testing before being released
3/ Black frames anyone?
4/ Too many to mention, but SCS being behind the curve (to put it mildly) on
Blu-Ray is a glaring example.

I have said this before on this forum, but my problem with SCS right now is not the bugs and the issues, but the tendency, and I don't like it. I am happy that SCS is (apparently, but we'll see in June) starting to address the Blu-Ray issue, but that is not enough.

The fact that 32 bit work isn't even close to being release quality, and as I say above, there is no way SCS ever did any amount of testing of this new feature, is worrying. [Edit] Also, the fact that one year down the line, no progress whatsoever has been made to get it up to minimum stability and usability is equally worrying.

From watching this from the inside in other companies, what happens when you start going down the slippery-slope is that addingnew features are given higher priority than testing them or testing anything at all. The new titler and the 32 bit work flow would indicate to me that SCS isn't doing much testing at all. If they are, I hope they have fired their test manager.
Bill Ravens wrote on 5/25/2008, 5:23 AM
very well said, terje.
DJPadre wrote on 5/25/2008, 5:52 AM
too many issues to list which have owrkable workarounds which shouldnt exist..

Predominately however, the BIGGEST issue above all else IMO is integration of a progressive scan frame mangement engine.

With this, i specifcially refer to deinterlacing 1080i into 1080p, slowmotion with progressive scan sourced material (ie its non existant.. unles sur happy with choppy footage that is.. ) and actual support of the Canon A1 (that ones just a whim... i dont have prob swith the A1 and capturing with V7...

What id like to see..

Interpolation engine with proper slowmotion for progressive.. dont give me this force resample crap coz that dont work...
if u wanna know what kinda slowmo im talkin about, check out twixtor or dynapels slowmotion

support for Dolby Digital Plus or TrueHD (i doubt THAT will ever happen... )

Faster AVCHD rendering... as it stands on a quad core beast that pumps a render test in a lil over 70seconds, its a bit of a joke and to be honest, i dont get paid enough to render this format...

As it stands, if V9 doesnt deliver the goods i need, i have no coice BUT to jump ship simply because i am now working in a 1080p environment which vegas does not support entirely.
Serena wrote on 5/25/2008, 6:18 AM
Vegas 8 is working alright for me and I've greatly enhanced my backup procedures because one never knows when the "sorry" notice might appear. Fortunately mostly that notice can parked and ignored.
However the observations about warning signs of companies losing interest in their products ring true and the poor marketing of Vegas has been evident for some time. Perhaps the truth is that they've recognised that Vegas has failed to build an appropriate share of the professional market and have accepted that the market is the hobbyist (where bells & whistles matter). Pity really. I'm not anxious to go Apple because my machines are all PC.
winrockpost wrote on 5/25/2008, 6:21 AM
I'm getting some screen freezing that i have never had in previous versions,, but not sure its a vegas issue or the fact that with a quad machine purchased at about the same time as v8 install
i have more apps open at the same time,

Would love to be able to RTFM and get the sony take on 32 bit and the protype title thing
blink3times wrote on 5/25/2008, 6:28 AM
"I must say I find it remarkable the low level of what is considered acceptable."

It's all relative Bob. Compare what you have in Vegas now to other programs. Sure you'll find Pluses, but you'll also find minuses as well. There are lots of improvements that Vegas could benefit from and I would imagine they will come in time. But every NLE (that I have worked with anyway) has it's phantoms,ghosts, and short comings.

Not fixing older bugs.... again it's all relative. Other NLE's are in the same boat. Avid liquid has a smart render bug with PAL footage that has existed since version 5, and nothing has been done. Sometimes the repairs are not as easy as one thinks. Especially repairs like the black frame ghost which is quite intermittent ( the most difficult of repairs).

There are certain things I don't understand, like why we can't have a 3D EVENT as well as 3D track motion (we can sure have it with 3rd party filters), but for the most part I think Vegas is a well rounded NLE that can be used by both the pro industry as well as the hobbyist. Imagine for a moment being a Avid Liquid owner with a brand new Liquid version that just plain won't work AT ALL out of the starting gate, waiting 3 months for the first patch to get it 1/2 way working, and another YEAR for a patch to make it work to the point where you can actually use it. This actually happened. This dam program cost me $600, and it was TOTALLY useless for an entire year.


DJ:

I will certainly agree with you on the avchd issue. I don't want to fire up Spot (he seems a little sensitive on this issue) but I feel that Vegas had on obligation to get this right and it's far from it. You can work with it, but.....

As for "support for Dolby Digital Plus or TrueHD (i doubt THAT will ever happen... )'. First, how many other NLE's are supporting that right now, and second, something like that is a real double-edge sword. I could be wrong but I believe things like this require some kind of licensing which means the price tag will increase.... either that or serious restrictions added to avoid the licensing.
JJKizak wrote on 5/25/2008, 6:43 AM
As you all recall Sony had avery difficult time aquiring licensing for Dolbby AC-3 for Vegas, at least I think is was AC-3 or was it 5.1?
JJK
Terje wrote on 5/25/2008, 6:54 AM
Compare what you have in Vegas now to other programs. Sure you'll find Pluses, but you'll also find minuses as well.

I agree with this completely and I am in no rush to change, I am just worried about the trend. The two most glaring things that currently worry me is the pro titler and 32 bit rendering. Not because I need them desperately, but because what their presence tells me about SCS.

The titler is a great idea, and as a new feature, I'll give SCS some leeway in the implementation, but I have found this to be amazingly full of problems. In addition to being astonishingly bloated and slow, this worries me. Why would they release it when it clearly still is in beta quality? Who pushed so hard to have this released? Would Vegas 8 fail if it was not included? I doubt it.

Then there is 32 bit rendering. It doesn't work at all. Not even close. It never has. I mean, not that it some times has problems. It isn't even remotely close to functional. Do you know of any company that has released software touting a new feature that has not been tested at all by anyone? It can't have been. You see, if just one person within SCS had run a single test on 32 bit rendering, they would immediately have realized it doesn't work.

This last point is what worries me the most. Anyone releasing software with zero testing done on new, and touted, features have an internal management problem that spells trouble down the line.
blink3times wrote on 5/25/2008, 7:01 AM
"Do you know of any company that has released software touting a new feature that has not been tested at all by anyone? "

Sure. Pinnacle has done this with Studio, Ulead with MF, and Avid with Liquid...NO ONE could burn a single disk with Liquid for at least the first 3 months. In fact Liquid was a total disaster upon release.... NOTHING worked as advertised.
craftech wrote on 5/25/2008, 7:05 AM
The titler is a great idea, and as a new feature, I'll give SCS some leeway in the implementation, but I have found this to be amazingly full of problems. In addition to being astonishingly bloated and slow, this worries me. Why would they release it when it clearly still is in beta quality? Who pushed so hard to have this released? Would Vegas 8 fail if it was not included? I doubt it.
========
We pushed it since Vegas 2.

The titler was poor and was one of the basic complaints since Vegas 2 that we all had. The Pro Titler was the answer finally. One of the few basic changes they finally made that we had been requesting for years.

John
CClub wrote on 5/25/2008, 7:34 AM
If you were to switch, what NLE would you switch to? You have FCP, Premiere Pro, Edius options, and Avid options? I'd jump ship in 2 seconds if I thought there was an NLE that didn't have the same level of complaints as some of you are expressing. But in reviewing the postings of all the other NLE's even just on dvinfo.net, they all have complaints. It seems like you pick your poison/pick your antidote.

Given the complaints that the other NLE users have about their systems, the only thing I could see doing is picking up a 2nd NLE if a particular problem with Vegas was preventing a specific funding source from continuing.
deusx wrote on 5/25/2008, 7:47 AM
>>>Then there is 32 bit rendering. It doesn't work at all. <<<

Works for me.

p@mast3rs wrote on 5/25/2008, 8:12 AM
While I have been a rather staunch supporter of Vegas, I have since moved on to CS3 and FCS2 as they provide me a complete workflow. From pre to post, Adobe has really improved greatly. Its not to say that PProCS3 does not have bugs but Adobe has seemingly rededicated itself to the video production segment.

With CS4 in beta, the things I have seen will completely change the way video editors edit, especially with Linguistics CS4 and the speech recognition. And this all starts with OnLocation CS4 and driving the metadata through each phase of production.

FCS2 is a different type of workflow but is slowly winning me over Vegas. I think the reason I jumped was because Vegas used to be so innovative. Now it has fallen behind heavily over the years. While I still use Vegas for use of US4 and other outputs, other than that, I dont use Vegas nearly as much as I once did.

Everyone is clamoring about 64 bit but the problem is what benefit will 64bit really bring other than the ability to use more RAM or slighty faster renders? It still doesnt sound as if Sony will address the mad lack of plugins that I get to enjoy under FCS2 or CS3. Hell, it has taken Sony nearly a year to support its own BD technology that Adobe has been enjoying since July 1 last year.

Without arrogance, Vegas has become a consumer's NLE while its competitors continue to drive forward to provide a complete post production studio for its customers.
DJPadre wrote on 5/25/2008, 9:47 AM
I will certainly agree with you on the avchd issue. I don't want to fire up Spot (he seems a little sensitive on this issue) but I feel that Vegas had on obligation to get this right and it's far from it. You can work with it, but.....

((Dunno what his problem is.. maybe he can chime in... Either way, its slow... regardless of which encode engine u use (Sony or MC)

As for "support for Dolby Digital Plus or TrueHD (i doubt THAT will ever happen... )'. First, how many other NLE's are supporting that right now,

((Does it matter?? The fact that BD doesnt actually have DDplus as a mandatory format, means we prolly wont ever see it.. And true HD isnt worth the toilet paper we wipe our asses on considering tehmajority of users are recognisd in HDV MPG audio... totally defeats the purpose.. in fact MPG audio from HDV barely scrapes through the minimum TSA requirements for DD 5.1..
Technically its actually a failure... as AC3 @384kbps is the bare minimum for delivery, NOT accquisition from an MPG source at teh same bitrate.. they sound TOTALLY different side by side.. even on a cheap system.. a high end unit even moreso.
People can argue this till their blue in the face...

In any case, this is why im looking back to Pana with their new HVX or Sony with the EX... ))

"and second, something like that is a real double-edge sword. I could be wrong but I believe things like this require some kind of licensing which means the price tag will increase....

((Yes the TruHD encoder is about 2 grand.. IM happy to pay a discounted rate to get this integrated with Vegas, however my point was specifically refering to having TruHD within the vgas encoder engine, so as to create masters without the need to export and use another app. ))

"As you all recall Sony had avery difficult time aquiring licensing for Dolbby AC-3 for Vegas, at least I think is was AC-3 or was it 5.1?
JJK "

THis si a fist i heard about this.. before the AC3 encoder in DVDA and Vegas unlock, we used to use a standalone program called Softencode. I dont ever recall there being any issues, but i could be wrong..
Cliff Etzel wrote on 5/25/2008, 9:55 AM
Again, I must be one of the few who really doesn't have complaints about Vegas Pro 8 (or any other SONY app) at all.

Yes, maybe a better capture utility for those of us still shooting tape - although I think SONY is biding its time knowing that within a short period of time, tapeless will make the capture utility a moot point.

Since my work involves using cuts, dissolves and color correction and basic titling, Vegas has proved more than efficient in what I ask of it. I'm currently developing a short documentary that will profile several vignettes about local people for web distribution and I feel confident that Vegas is up to the challenge.

Although I hear great things about Edius - the interface is one of the worst workflow methodologies I have come across - not as bad as Avids, but close. Adobe's suite is a discourse in resource consumption and inefficiency accomplishing simple tasks - and what little experience I have had with FCS and its overpriced Intel hardware dongle - likewise. My only minor gripe about Vegas is the lack of interface brightness control - something that Adobe allows the user to finetune and the other apps default to darker tones - which eases eye strain when putting in long post production sessions.

I admit Vegas is by no means perfect - if any one NLE were - we'd all be using it - it really depends on what you ask of the application. I ask Vegas to be stable, give me real time effects and color correction preview and be as hardware agnostic as possible - all which it does very well. My frustration level is no where near what it has been with other NLE's I have TRIED to work with.

Vegas utilizes a workflow methodology that falls in line with new media content creation - something the other NLE's sorely lack (read MIke Jones' blog postings on this topic here and here). I've tried them all at one time or another, and chose Vegas and SONY's other apps due to improved editing efficiency and ease of use. Once I got the frameserving glitch resolved I had recently - thanks again to these forums, I can frameserve to On2 Flix Pro when I need an FLV's for internet distribution, which is the bulk of my work currently, so now I don't even think of Vegas needing the ability of native FLV encoding.

If one has a need for bloatware that is known as the other major application suites, good on ya - personally the efficiencies and ease of use of SONY's apps make up for those inadequacies others stated in this thread - at least for me.

Cliff Etzel - Solo Video Journalist
bluprojekt | SoloVJ.com
Coursedesign wrote on 5/25/2008, 10:16 AM
Edius - the interface is one of the worst workflow methodologies I have come across - not as bad as Avids, but close.

You could argue that Avid's workflow methodology has been around for a long time, even that it's getting a bit long in the tooth.

But "worst?" Not by a long stretch.

I could just as easily argue that it is the best.

How so?

Because it is incredibly fast and efficient to work with, if you learn to edit the Avid way. This seems clunky at first, then if you really follow the careful instructions, you find that, hey, this really is quite efficient.

Unlike Vegas or FCP where you have 100 choices for how to do each thing, in Avid there tends to be ONE way to do it.

So many new editors think this is old-fashioned and restrictive.

But it's just part of learning the system, and I'm really glad to have choices so I can pick different tools where they work best, and I don't have to use the handle of a screwdriver to hammer in nails.

Vegas where possible (and yes with US4!), Avid for scripted long form or where working media management is needed, FCS for broadcast production with lots of motion graphics and "high-end formats" (10-bit works well within bounds, saves disk space, and boosts performance).

I don't think working media management would be a waste in Vegas, but I certainly have to join Terje in suspecting the desktop version of MSSQL as not being exactly robust. MySQL has an open source equivalent that has received generally very good user reports...
Terje wrote on 5/26/2008, 7:59 PM
>>>Then there is 32 bit rendering. It doesn't work at all. <<<

>> Works for me.

Sorry, should have qualified that, it doesn't work with HDV material. For anyone.
ReneH wrote on 5/26/2008, 8:15 PM
I'm of the impression that too many people blame crashes and other nonsense to Vegas when its probably due to their lack of pc knowledge.

I have been working with Vegas since version 3 and cannot even remember the last time Vegas crashed. Folks, brush up on your pc and os knowledge, stop surfing porn sites :) on the same pc you use to edit with, and keep your drivers updated wherever possible.
deusx wrote on 5/26/2008, 8:26 PM
That's exactly what I use ( HDV ).

Default project is set to 32 bit, and there are no problems here. I think it takes longer to render, but that's about it ( if I remember rendering times with 8 bit ).

I haven't had a single crash in any version of Vegas 7 or 8.

Maybe because I use it as a NLE and not a compositing app with 200 tracks ( because it is a NLE not a compositor ). Whatever the reason it works here.
Laurence wrote on 5/26/2008, 8:48 PM
That's exactly what I use ( HDV ).

Be aware that if you are using native HDV clips (.m2t) and 32 bit rendering, you are messing up your colorspace. Initially this might look pretty because the colors will be more saturated, but it is unnatural and wrong. Cineform renders correctly at 32bits, but native HDV comes out looking like you added a color correction filter with the "Studio RGB to Computer RGB" preset.

If you like this oversaturated look, just work in 8bit and add a color correction filter with the "Studio RGB to Computer RGB" preset. It will look almost the same and render way faster. ;-)
barleycorn wrote on 6/15/2008, 3:50 AM
"2/ The new titler, not only is it a buggy mess, but it is implemented in C#, which (Terje)

Actually, there is a good reason why C# (or more specifically .NET) was used in this case: it makes the implementation of OpenType glyph substitution much more straightforward than it would have been otherwise (see http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms745109.aspx).

The new titler certainly isn't perfect but, for the more advanced typographer, the OpenType support is very welcome.