John,

You ought to send your discovery/workaround to Sony via the tech support button at the top of this page, if you haven't done so already. I know they are keen on fixing this once and for all.
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Done,
Even though there was no real category for this type of submission I did get a reference number. All I did was to submit a link to this thread with a short explanation as to why.

John

Good work craftech.


I know that some multimedia keyboards have a mute button.

Vegas can access this via keyboard shortcuts. That wouldn't affect this issue, because usually if you press the mute button the default Vegas behavior is to mute the track (audio/video) not just a single frame. However, it does seem that audio controls have hooks into Vegas, perhaps one of them is faulty.

Even though there was no real category for this type of submission I did get a reference number. All I did was to submit a link to this thread with a short explanation as to why.

John, thanks for doing that. All of us have been trying to figure this out for a LONG time, and yours is the first hopeful post I have ever seen on this subject.

I can easily see how the audio might be involved. Remember that the underlying structure of Vegas was originally designed for audio, and video was added later. In addition, one of Vegas' amazing advantage is that it can handle almost any combination of frame sizes, frame rates, and audio sampling rates. Lots of different timing, all on the same timeline. In writing some of my scripts, I had to briefly look into some of the underlying ways in which timecode is stored, and there are all sorts of potentials for things to not line up. If two events don't line up, I have no idea what the Vegas code does to decide what to do, but my bet is that the flash frame problem is buried somewhere in that part of the code.

Anyway, you've given them a good solid clue. Let's see if they can use it to finally unravel this mystery.

John - I use Turtle Beach Santa Cruz and Vegas 6d and have never had a problem with flash/black frames. I don't normally operate with the audio control panel open and I've done 3 90 minute shows this past month.

I don't normally operate with the audio control panel open and I've done 3 90 minute shows this past month.
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Thanks,
This is lending more credibility to my theory. When I closed my control panel the flash frames did not re-appear until I enabled it again.
I don't think we are talking about strictly Turtle Beach Sound Cards here though. It has something to do (I think) with the way audio in general affects the Vegas rendering process. Not everyone who has had flash frames has the same sound card, but they MAY have some part of the control panel/s or sound card processes running while rendering which may be interfering with Vegas' method of rendering.

John

You might very well be right on target. I have experienced flash frames in Vegas Video 3 and Vegas 4 and I also have a Turtle Beach Santa Cruz installed, driver version 5.12.1.4193, which I think I updated not too long ago. I don't have time to run some Santa Cruz Control Panel (enabled/disabled) tests right now but I'm going to turn off that panel anyway. John, when you say you closed the control panel, do you mean you unloaded it so it will not even open when you dbl-click the systray speaker icon, or do you mean you closed it by clicking "x" on it while it is running?

unloaded it so it will not even open when you dbl-click the systray speaker icon. You can enable it again by running the Turtle Beach Sound Check.

John

Good work, John! Now, the Sony team can find what parameter the sound software is changing,(probably rounding off index pointer or overwriting of variables' space).

John,

What version of Vegas are you using? I have checked with Sony, and they are pretty confident that the problem does not exist in the current shipping version of Vegas.

I have had problems in the past with certain motherboard/memory combinations with the sound loosing sync randomly during playback with Asio/standard drivers. There seems to be avenues of sound interferring with things. This was with a creative card.
JJK

John,

What version of Vegas are you using? I have checked with Sony, and they are pretty confident that the problem does not exist in the current shipping version of Vegas.
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I posed that question on the forums recently and apparently the problem does still exist in Vegas 6.

See here.

Your response from them is very discouraging. I haven't heard from them yet, but I hope they don't sluff the problem off like they did with you. I have devoted an awful lot of time to trying to help them resolve this problem thinking they were actually interested.

John

So, you are still using Vegas 4, yes? I really don't think the problem exists any more in the current version (6.0d). That is why this thread has been dormant for almost a year.

In the thread you linked to, there are two users that discuss problems they are having, but those problems sure don't sound anything like the original flash frame issue, even though they use the term "flash frame" to describe them.

I am glad, however, that you've found a workaround for Vegas 4.

So, you are still using Vegas 4, yes? I really don't think the problem exists any more in the current version (6.0d). That is why this thread has been dormant for almost a year.

In the thread you linked to, there are two users that discuss problems they are having, but those problems sure don't sound anything like the original flash frame issue, even though they use the term "flash frame" to describe them.

I am glad, however, that you've found a workaround for Vegas 4.
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Yet they had the problem with Vegas 6.

Funny how all of a sudden you get off the phone with Sony and you are whistling a completely different tune than you were above. Now you are making excuses for the problem on their behalf. Hopefully, my first hand response from them will be a more positive one. If it is not, I doubt that I will also take the roll of a cheerleader for them.

John

Craftech, I don't think you're being fair.
First, I'm aware of at least 3 drives having been sent to the dev team for reproducing the problem. They haven't been able to repro it but have done an awful lot of research on it. Maybe they DO need to buy a Turtle Beach sound card, but apparently there are Turtle Beach users that *aren't* having this problem in 6 either. I don't know from the thread you reference that we're talking about the same thing.

Second, I've not seen this since Vegas 5c, and it's something folks aren't talking about anymore, and given the extremely significant growth of Vegas 5 and 6 in the market, folks would be screaming about this, don't you agree?

Third, JohnMeyer has been exceptionally critical of Sony's software on dozens if not hundreds of occasions both publically and privately. There is no need to take the position that "he's a Sony cheerleader." I'll reserve that particular position for myself. :-)
I do think it's important for folks to note that you're still using Vegas 4. It makes it difficult to chase problems or provide answers with a rev that is some odd 200 builds ago. It's great that you've tracked what is causing *your* particular problem to a particular card, but it's also a very old build, and could be old drivers. Whether Sony should be supporting that or not, I dunno.

I've had them and never even been to turtle beach.

the "pretty sure" statement does not make one feel real sure Sony has ever figured it out, but if they can't duplicate it , then they don't have much of a chance of fixing it.

Craftech, I don't think you're being fair.
First, I'm aware of at least 3 drives having been sent to the dev team for reproducing the problem. They haven't been able to repro it but have done an awful lot of research on it. Maybe they DO need to buy a Turtle Beach sound card, but apparently there are Turtle Beach users that *aren't* having this problem in 6 either. I don't know from the thread you reference that we're talking about the same thing.
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Doug,
You are getting confused here. This problem has not gone away completely. Others post it from time to time and still others don't complain if re-booting gets rid of them. Neither have I complained that much. Nor have I suggested that Sony didn't try to resolve the problem. I remember when they said they would give free software to anyone who sent them a hard drive and they could repro the problem from it.

Moreover,
I was not the one who said it had to do with Turtle Beach sound cards per say.
Someone asked me above what kind of a sound card I had and others drew that conclusion from that. I suggested from the tests I did that my suspicions from last year that it had something to do with the AUDIO seemed to be confirmed.
I don't see why my efforts to help resolve this age old problem that (yes) Still Exists should be reduced to "Get over it already". And what get's me is that when I first announced my discovery a few days ago everyone including John seemed happy about it.
Here was John's first reaction:

"John, thanks for doing that. All of us have been trying to figure this out for a LONG time, and yours is the first hopeful post I have ever seen on this subject.

I can easily see how the audio might be involved. Remember that the underlying structure of Vegas was originally designed for audio, and video was added later. In addition, one of Vegas' amazing advantage is that it can handle almost any combination of frame sizes, frame rates, and audio sampling rates. Lots of different timing, all on the same timeline. In writing some of my scripts, I had to briefly look into some of the underlying ways in which timecode is stored, and there are all sorts of potentials for things to not line up. If two events don't line up, I have no idea what the Vegas code does to decide what to do, but my bet is that the flash frame problem is buried somewhere in that part of the code.

Anyway, you've given them a good solid clue. Let's see if they can use it to finally unravel this mystery."


All of them know that Sony never really figured out exactly WHAT was "causing" the problem. Now all of a sudden I am being berated (in my attempts to help resolve it) for having old software.

Talk about not being fair. Thanks a lot.

John

If the problem is still out there in Vegas 6, I'm all for finding a solution. If it's in Vegas 4, Sony likely shouldn't worry about it.
I've yet to see it since Vegas 5c. That's all I'm saying. I've yet to see a confirmed post on the subject. If it exists, render out a file so everyone can see it, and let's figure it out. Sony can't repro. No one who has been active in the forums has reported it. No one can document a consistent example of the problem. Does it exist in 6 or not? I'm very active in every active Vegas forum out there, and don't see reports of it anywhere, and haven't for a long time, which leads me to believe it's probably dead.
Adobe ignored font problems in Photoshop 4,5,6,7, and finally fixed it in CS. They didn't go backwards and fix in 4,5,6, or 7.
I don't see my post, or John's as being 'berating' because you're using Vegas 4. More as a commentary of "if you're using 4, and we know for sure that there was a flash-frame issue in 4, it's great you found a workaround." But I don't believe that this problem exists in 6.

If the problem is still out there in Vegas 6, I'm all for finding a solution. If it's in Vegas 4, Sony likely shouldn't worry about it.
I've yet to see it since Vegas 5c. That's all I'm saying. I've yet to see a confirmed post on the subject.
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I asked that question two weeks ago and linked to the thread above. From that and some responses to this thread in the last few days it would appear that Winrock, 2 Road, JJKIzak, Jim H, DCV, and possibly Apit34356 have all had flash frames using Vegas 6.
Please note for the record. I haven't had an official response from Sony Tech support yet. I notified them about my "discovery" as per John's suggestion and am awaiting an answer. I cannot assume that I will get a flogging from them for owning Vegas 4. I would like to be positive about it and hope they appreciate the hours I spent trying to help them get to the bottom of a problem that up until this morning everyone seemed to agree still needed attention.

John

And if the audio is at the heart of the problem, some of the type of projects I do are more likely to trigger flash frames than for most people. I have seen them most often in multiple track projects with shifted and re-synched audio events to other video events that jump quickly back and forth between up to thirteen tracks. They are pseudo multicam projects that look like a 3-4 camera shoot but done with a single camera. It is when I am doing those types of projects (around this time of the year) that I am most likely to see flash frames.

If I can raise a general Windows architecture note:

Almost everything in windows is handled by messages. Messages to windows on your screen telling it to move the cursor two pixels to the left and three down, messages to the soundcard, screen, services, etc. The more layers between the source of the message and the target of the message, the longer the delay.

So the fewer layers between the source and the target, the quicker the result. That means no antivirus, firewall, "enhancer" audio programs, viruses, etc. helps the response. Have your antivirus only check for files coming into your PC (after a thorough scan of your existing files).

I've never encountered the "flash frame" but I try to run a lean machine. Have you ever had a Creative Live card on your PC? Have you seen the bloat that brings along with it?

For final render, shut as much of your unnecessary programs off. Unplug your internet cable, shut off firewall/ZoneAlarm.

See if that clears the flash frame up.

Spot,

Thanks for the kind words. Your characterization of what I was trying to do is exactly correct. I just wanted to confirm that John was using Vegas 4 so we don't start chasing old ghosts.

John, on your behalf (before I realized that you were using Vegas 4), I contacted Sony and pointed them to your post . They responded, almost immediately, with several long emails in which they listed things they have done in Vegas 5 and Vegas 6 to track down anything that might have been causing the problem and fix it.

The only reason I was able to contact them in this way is that I was a beta tester for Vegas 6 last year and I still have an email addresses. Except for that, I have never worked on their behalf, and do not have any commercial ties with them, other than as a user of most of Sonic Foundry's products.

As Spot says, I am hardly a cheerleader for Sony, although I sure as heck try hard to give them advice on what I think they should do next. I made a very nice living for thirty years giving companies, both large and small, similar advice. Back then, I charged people a LOT of money for what I now try to give to Sony for free. Ticks me off when they don't listen, and my testiness shows through in many of my posts. Therefore, I don't think you'll get anyone on the Sony side of the fence to agree that I am a shill for their side.

I am still ready to help you whenever I can and I hope I have generally provided good advice in the past.

Sorry John. Maybe I misunderstood. I do appreciate what you do on these forums for all of us. You are always willing to help others same as Doug.
Regards,
John

On Win ME using Vegas 4.0e I don't have this problem.

Have you tried installing Vegas 4.0e on Win XP/2000/ME to see if the flash frame still occurs?

And have you tried installing the DEMO for Vegas 5 or 6 on a Win 2000/XP machine to see if the problem still exists with your sound card?
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If you read through this entire thread you will see that the problem has defied resolution for many years and all the suggestions you made have not narrowed it down in the past. For every suggestion there has always been someone who said they get them despite that (whatever the suggestion was).

I resurected the post because I was able to consistently produce the flash frames and then make them go away and then make them return(see the first post above from 2006).

I didn't post it seeking help with my flash frames. This was more of what I perceived to be a discovery.

And I don't think it is due to any particular sound card.

I think it is the way the audio affects the rendering process regardless of OS. I was able to make them go away whenever I stopped the Turtle Beach driver interface from running. So I thought I would pass along what I believed to be a substantive clue to resolving the problem once and for all.

Not everyone has had flash frames even with earlier versions of Vegas, yet others do even with Vegas 6. No one including SF/Sony could ever figure out why.

Again, I am suggesting (as I did a year ago) that the AUDIO can cause problems under certain conditions (as yet undetermined) during the rendering process.

John