I think that if you record an averagely played, average piece of music with a brilliant microphone you’ll probably end up with a better than average final product.

Whereas; if you record a brilliantly played, brilliant piece of music with an average microphone you will end up with a fantastic final product.

Naturally, the idea is to get the brilliant thing on both sides of the equation...But if I was forced to make the choice I know which side I’d take 1000 times out of 1000.

I’m not saying people should deliberately use poor equipment. You do get what you pay for, a great mic is a great mic...but it isn’t a magic wand.

I suppose I’m saying that I think the majority of users on this forum should probably go for the mic that gives them the best bang for their buck...

If your room is really great sounding and quiet,
buy a great condensor.
My room sucks, too noisy for condensor mics, so I
use an EV RE20 dynamic (broadcast mic, like howard stern's)...
Excellent for male vocals, everyone has been amazed and loved it.
Not always so hot for the ladies though...so I use a Beta 57 by shure
with an added pop filter, sounds real nice...under $150.

I have been recording for 30 years and I don't really think you have
to have all the super expensive stuff to get by...maybe it's just me
but I think creativity and a good song count for more than all the condensor mics in the world.

Jaded.

I have C3000s. Good for overhead drums, not much else. I use mine live, just one, overhead to pick up snare, toms and cymbals...works just great.
have tried vocals...not so hot, guitar either.

Have you compared the C3000s to anything else as overheads ? In my experience that is the very thing they are most worst at !

geoff

This is a lot of of good information, mostly filled with opinions through ones own experiences and reference points. That's something we'll all have to deal with for the rest of our lives. It's audio in general, everyone has their opinion of what sounds good and what sounds good to one person, might not sound good to the next. Be that as it may.

Going back to the original post, before I'ld make any recommendations, the first question I would ask is "What is your APPLICATION that you want to use the mic for?" Obviously, someone must have informed the original poster, that they need a good condenser mic.....Like opinions there's a million of them out there and each are good and bad in certain areas.

I don't agree with PeterVred's recommendation of using an RE-20 or SM-57 for vocals, and in most cases would laugh that someone is using DYNAMIC mics for vocals.....but obviously these fit his APPLICATION, but they wouldn't fit mine.

Personally, I have AKG 414's and AT-4050's for my studio condenser microphones. I use to use the 414's exclusively until the 4050's came out. I thought these where the best thing that came out since sliced bread, they sounded great to me on vocals. Then I used them for voice over work that I was doing.....they didn't sound so good. I then used them on vocals with many other instruments in the studio.....their rejection compared to the 414's where not so good. So I went back to the 414's for voice overs....they sounded great compared to the 4050's. I use the 414's when I'm laying down vocal tracks with other instruments playing in the studio. So now most of the time I use my 4050's for solo vocal recordings, and my 414's for voice overs. So in my opinion both of these mics are great condenser microphones, but it depends on my APPLICATION. So unfortunately, the real answer to the original question is more questions.

1.) What is your application? (ie what will you primarily be recording?)
2.) What is your environment? (ie quite vocal booth? single sound source? etc...)
3.) What kind of sound are you trying to achieve? (ie what's your reference point?)


P.S. I liked finally seeing some firery discussions that I didn't start for once....Not bad 29 posts before I jumped in. :-)

red

I recommend the Shure KSM27.....$299 and sounds really good. I have the KSM44 and 32, and love them. That is the mic on Jay Leno's desk (painted black) (he used to have a KSM32 on his desk) and what the Dixie Chicks used on the Grammy's. They sound incredible for the money. I also like my SM58 (under $100, dynamic) for voice work too. FYI - I am biased towards Shure products though. ;-)

Jason

Jason-

Were the Chicks using 27s or 44s? I thought they were using 44s. Whichever, I took note that they definitely sounded amazing on their voices.

ok, for what its worth, my opinion, etc
The C3000 is a horrible mic. The C4000 is another story, and can often sound good despite its bad looks.
I have had all the Studio Projects mics in the studio for a long time. I will not buy any of them.
The valve T3 could be the most useful, very bright.
I have been using a multitude of mics on every source, in order to get used to the character of every mic.
I have been using models worth up to us$4500.
I think the best value mic, or sometimes best sounding, is the Rode Classic 11 that sells here for us$1100. However being very colorful it will not suit everything, but will give a 'big' vocal sound when worked close.
The jump in sound from this mic to ones costing twice as much is more a case of subjective preference rather than 'quality'.
The Rode NTK is better than the valve Studio Projects or Nadys.
The best "value' allrounder if money is the issue, is probably the 'B' series Studio Projects.

"Were the Chicks using 27s or 44s? I thought they were using 44s. Whichever, I took note that they definitely sounded amazing on their voices."

Probably had more to do with the Autotune hardware they where singing through than the mic. There isn't a mic in the world that could make the Chicks with Dixs sound good. :-)

Red, I'm getting a 4050 shortly - I've heard they're great on guitar cabs because of the forward midrange, have you tried this?

thanks!
Jason

Nope, can't tell you anything about using the 4050 on a guitar cab directly. I usually use a SM57 on the cab, and then I'll put the 4050 in the corner of the room and then delay the SM57 to time align it to the 4050. The 4050 is pretty transparent to me, it just seems to have a slight boost on the high end, which gives it a little extra presence when doing vocals.

Red

The Royer R121 or R122 ribbons are fantastic on guitar cabs. No fizzy high-end and lots of body. These were the first mics that made my old Marshall's actually sound like they do when you stand in front of them. I have come close with some condensers, but there was always a bit of an edge to the sound that was not completely desireable.

I realize the Royers are not cheap, but you should check them out.

it always seems to comeback to these goddamn ribbon mics! I'm gonna have to get me one I guess!

I found this link recently while trying to decide what cheap condensor mic to buy.
http://www.thelisteningsessions.com/session5.htm

Has a bunch of downloadable MP3 files with different mics recording the same material.
This might be a good first-pass way to decide what might work for you. Not all the mics that have been mentioned here are in the list, but many are.

-Rex

I just wanted to bring to everyone's attention an incredible experience that I had an opportunity to be a part of yesterday that corresponds with this thread.

I had spoke earlier about the Marshall 2001/Mojave Audio upgrade knock off mic. It's a complete overhaul kit which replaces everything inside the mic except the diaphragm and the shell and you build a power supply which powers the internal 5540W Ratheon tube and Jenson Transformer inside the mic.

I have a dear friend here in Nashville, his name is Ben Hall. Ben has been a part of developing recording technologies for over 50 years, he built the RCA studios here, you can't begin to name all of his successes and he is a legendary engineer.

Anyway, Ben has an all original Neumann (VF14 tube) U47 that he bought brand new in the late 40s for $75... that was a lot of money for a mic back then!!!

Anyway, the VF14 alone could be sold for $3k or more. But Ben's mic is impecable. Not a single scratch and perfect. Ben keeps the electrolitic capacitors up to date in all of his vntage gear and the mic techs out perfectly.

I wanted to see how my (less than) $500 knock off Marshall Mojave Mod would compare to this fantastic microphone. We set them up side by side and 3 world class engineers: Mark Thornton, Ben Hall and myself and a legendary, world class session guitar player; Paul Yandell all agreed that the knock off mic was not only comparible .... but it actually sounded better.

The Marshall Mod was slightly warmer, a little hotter and electronically silent. We swapped channels, used matched, high end mic pre's .... same result. The Mojave Modded Marshall microphone is a freakin' awesome microphone and if anyone here thinks that these chinese mics don't stand up, I'll be glad to prove to you and your microphone that it absolutely does.

Just a question, did you say you compared the microphones recording a guitar? Not vocals? Thought that would be far more revealing.

The original U47 tube is a Telefunken VF-14, not a J14. A 5540W can never fully match the performance of it. The biggest problem with old '47s is the aging capsule and the tube wearing out, changing capacitors only helps in a few cases.

Regarding the Chinese mics, you should be aware that these capsules can be very different from unit to unit. Stretching and tuning a diaphragm is a difficult and time-consuming task, so if you got a good one consider yourself lucky! The type of the capsule is much more like that of a U67 BTW.

For those who want to get the quality of a Neumann, with a slightly lower budget I recommend checking out the interesting story and products of Microtech Gefell in Germany.

But most of all, always belive your own ears (even more than the words of a "world-class engineer" about his Chinese mic). Having said that, I do believe that the sound of the Marshall mod can be pretty amazing!

Martin

"But most of all, always belive your own ears (even more than the words of a "world-class engineer" about his Chinese mic)."

Too true!!! "World-class"? Lol!! I've been to Nashville before, it's not that big of a city, and everyone and their brother is doing studio work. Most people from Nashville, believe they're the recording capital of the world. So I guess, just living there would also qualify you as a "world-class" engineer.....whatever that means anyway.

Just so you know we did have two of the mod mics there that sounded identical to our ears. In one series of tests, we took away the U47 and compared the two (one year difference in mic's production) Marshall Mod mic's and they sounded identical.

Also, our tests were performed with gut string classical and steel string acoustic guitars, upright bass, grand piano and voice.

Furthermore, I personally own a pair or Gefell UM 92.1 Ss, which is one of their top of the line condensors. I had already compared the performance of the Marshall mics to that. Frankly, I personally felt that the Marshalls in their stock form were very comparable to this mic when comparing to the Gefell's switched to the standard cardoid pattern. The biggest sonic quality difference was that the Stock Marshall had a substantial higher electronic noise level. But, after the Mojave Mod, the Marshall sounds every bit as good as the Gefell.

Whatever Red, maybe you can ask one of your neighbors why BMI put their U.S. headquarters in Nashville (Music City, USA) ...and I'm certainly not going to waste my time defending Ben's, Mark's, Paul's or my experience to you.

"Whatever Red, maybe you can ask one of your neighbors why BMI put their U.S. headquarters in Nashville (Music City, USA) ...and I'm certainly not going to waste my time defending Ben's, Mark's, Paul's or my experience to you."

Wasting Time? Seems like you guys have a lot of time to waste. I'm trying to picture three "world class engineers" sitting in a studio, doing A/B comparisons between 2 microphones. One guy's spending alot of time changing capacitors in his Neuman, and the other is promoting Chinese made electronics. Most "world class engineers (whatever that means?)" I know, are too busy using their mics, rather than sitting around drinking coffee deciding which one sounds better. Sounds like you three "world class engineers" have a lot of down time to waste. I'm not asking you to defend any of your experience, just come down to Earth with the rest of us, and maybe we can share some tips. I haven't seen you in EQ, MIX, or Recording Engineer magazines have I? So I guess, everyone's not knocking at your studio door trying to learn all your tricks that you think you know....now are they? It's about time to take yourself off that pedestal you think you're on Mr. World Class.

"you can ask one of your neighbors why BMI put their U.S. headquarters in Nashville."
Maybe that explains why I haven't heard of anything good from BMI, since the Sex Pistols left them.

Red

...Let me see, Brian Franz .....Hmmmmm, what is it exactly that you do? I can't seem to find any information out about you except that you recorded one band called "The Juan Valdez Love Machine", who doesn't seem to be available in retail anywhere... Now I think I understand why it's been necessary for you to personally attack people in this forum when you don't agree with what they say. With your attitude, keeping your day gig is probably a really good idea!!!

I find it interesting that you would be belittling the valuable information that I went out of my way to find out for people like yourself, who can't afford to spend over $2k on a microphone. It's funny too, because in my position, I have companies begging me to use their gear for free. You know, there is a reason why people like myself have time to do these kinds of tests, it is because we are successful at our trade. You should make good use of the information I offer you in this forum. You should also be thankful to Sonic Foundry who has made an investment in me to help people like you out with knowledge you may otherwise not have.

Oh Yes, I am so thankful. My career in the audio field could not exist without you. Are you done stroking yourself yet? Please go on, and remind us one more time how you're so much better than the rest of us, and we ALL should be thankful that we are blessed with your presence.

"It's funny too, because in my position, I have companies begging me to use their gear for free."
Yeah, that is pretty funny, seeing that I work for a company that developes microphones and we've never heard of your self proclaimed success. Maybe those Chinese mic builders have heard about you and have been begging for your services.

"You should also be thankful to Sonic Foundry who has made an investment in me to help people like you out with knowledge you may otherwise not have. "

Hmmmm...and what knowledge would that be you're referring too? I gaurantee I've offered more knowledge in these forums, than you ever will. But hey, that's cool if there's others lending some tips, that's what these forums are about. And what investments are you referring too?